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The New Zealand Test Team-The Way Forward

Howsie

International Captain
So another test series down and New Zealand again fails to come out on top. But this isn't about the recent test series, this thread is about how NZ can climb the rankings. So what are your guys thoughts, who should open. I thought Guptill did alright, he will get better. I'm not a fan of McIntosh at all, he should go. I feel we have a good 3-5, with Flynn, Taylor and Ryder and with McCullum, Oram, Franklin, and Vettori we have a good lower order. One thing that is really bugging me though is the fact that Jeetan Patel is a better test match bowler then Daniel Vettori, and my question is, should Patel play infront of Vettori if we are playing one spinner. Now the stats my show something different, but Vettori just isn't very threating. Also how do our fast-bowling stocks look at the moment, Martin is 34, O'Brien is 32, and Southee is no way ready for International cricket. Kyle Mills isn't test match standard either, so who do we have to replace these two if they get injured. Trent Boult isn't ready, Neil Wagner still has two years to go, and McClenaghan who someone keeps harping on about is hardly ready to play first-class cricket. So are our bowling stocks really that low.

I would just really like to get everyones thought's on the matter.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
The stats aren't in Jeets favour mostly because he only ever gets picked to play on roads like Napier.
 

Howsie

International Captain
1.Martin Guptill
2.Brendon McCullum
3.Daniel Flynn
4.Ross Taylor
5.Jesse Ryder
6.Jacob Oram/Kane Williamson
7.Daniel Vettori
8.James Franklin
9.Jeetan Patel
10.Iain O'Brien
11.Chris Martin

I think when we were over in England last year McCullum was the back-up opener, if he did open it would help balance the team out alot.
 

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
So another test series down and New Zealand again fails to come out on top. But this isn't about the recent test series, this thread is about how NZ can climb the rankings. So what are your guys thoughts, who should open. I thought Guptill did alright, he will get better. I'm not a fan of McIntosh at all, he should go. I feel we have a good 3-5, with Flynn, Taylor and Ryder and with McCullum, Oram, Franklin, and Vettori we have a good lower order. One thing that is really bugging me though is the fact that Jeetan Patel is a better test match bowler then Daniel Vettori, and my question is, should Patel play infront of Vettori if we are playing one spinner. Now the stats my show something different, but Vettori just isn't very threating. Also how do our fast-bowling stocks look at the moment, Martin is 34, O'Brien is 32, and Southee is no way ready for International cricket. Kyle Mills isn't test match standard either, so who do we have to replace these two if they get injured. Trent Boult isn't ready, Neil Wagner still has two years to go, and McClenaghan who someone keeps harping on about is hardly ready to play first-class cricket. So are our bowling stocks really that low.

I would just really like to get everyones thought's on the matter.
To be honest mate, get use to it & be patient. Given our paltry population, climate & conditions, player participation & dollars involved in the game here, its damn hard for us to consistently compete with the top 3-4 sides in the world (I'm talking the pure form here- Test Cricket).

Having watched NZ's test fortunes intently since the early 80s, I've observed the following; we had the great era in the 80s we're we were arguably the 2nd or 3rd best test side of that decade after the Windies & along with Pakistan (never losing a home series between 1980 & 1990). After that era we were mostly rubbish from around 1990-1998. Then we had the Fleming era & from about 1999-2003 we were arguably one of the top 3-4 test sides in the world & were ranked 3rd best test side for a couple of years in the ratings. Ever since 2004 we've been pretty much easy-beats again against the top nations.

I suppose my point is there is a definite pattern here; we have the odd little spell or era when at best we are one of the top 3-4 test teams & in between times we are inherently weak & just above minnow level.

The same way that a team like Australia have had a pattern that in a strong era they are the no.1 side and in their weakest era's they're still in the top 3-4 teams.

Can't see this pattern changing too much in the future tbh
 
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Flem274*

123/5
Population means diddly squat imo, otherwise the WI and Australia would have been down the bottom with us for all of eternity.

But mostly I agree, this team and guys coming through have the pieces to form a top 3 side (and I do believe we will reach number one in tests someday for a reasonable length, we just have to make the most of anything that comes our way consistently like WI and Australia, that means minimising the Sinclair-esque failures) and we won't stay down here for long. Pakistans future is uncertain and England can't bowl (they're worse than us imo). Also the WI have improved, but they were hardly cheated from certain victory down here.
 

Flem274*

123/5
1.Martin Guptill
2.Brendon McCullum
3.Daniel Flynn
4.Ross Taylor
5.Jesse Ryder
6.Jacob Oram/Kane Williamson
7.Daniel Vettori
8.James Franklin
9.Jeetan Patel
10.Iain O'Brien
11.Chris Martin

I think when we were over in England last year McCullum was the back-up opener, if he did open it would help balance the team out alot.
Now I won't go into why i think McCullum opening in tests won't work, but I'll ask a practical question: who will keep wicket? I doubt McCullum would last long if he had to be out there for all five days.
 

ret

International Debutant
from the guys that I have seen play

- Guptill
- Flynn
- Taylor
- Ryder
- McCullum
- Oram
- Vettori
- Franklin
- Patel
- O Brian
- Martin
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Guptill
xx
Flynn
Taylor
Ryder
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Patel/Southee
O'Brien
Martin

My personal opinion:

I think that you need to stick with that spine of the side. If Oram goes out, then bring in an Elliott type and bat him at 7. You have to back your four bowlers to get the job done, with Oram as a luxury bowling option. Would rather see NZ go with an extra batter even if Oram is not available, it's not too much of a stretch to get 10 overs out of Ryder, which should be as many as he'd need to bowl if you guys bowled 100 overs.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Guptill
xx
Flynn
Taylor
Ryder
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Patel/Southee
O'Brien
Martin

My personal opinion:

I think that you need to stick with that spine of the side. If Oram goes out, then bring in an Elliott type and bat him at 7. You have to back your four bowlers to get the job done, with Oram as a luxury bowling option. Would rather see NZ go with an extra batter even if Oram is not available, it's not too much of a stretch to get 10 overs out of Ryder, which should be as many as he'd need to bowl if you guys bowled 100 overs.
I like. just swap Southee with Franklin, and of course make leeway for the inclusion in the squad of anyone who happens to hammer down the door.
 

S.P. Fleming

U19 Cricketer
So any tips for who is the next in line for the opening spot? McIntosh clearly isnt good enough and the fact that every time he got out he was caught behind the wicket is a testament to his epic footwork.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
So sick of hearing about how much better than Vettori Patel is.

Patel looks a fair bit better than his First Class stats would suggest, but I still think a 74-game First Class career tells us a lot more about a bowler than a 7-game Test career (in which he never did anything more than just 'look' decent in anyway). Sure, he won't have been given favourable bowling conditions too often in New Zealand First Class cricket, but he's not going to get favourable bowling conditions in Test cricket either - why does everyone just assume he'll do better against much better opposition on similar pitches?

Vettori's over-rated as a bowler in some parts, but Patel's quickly becoming one of the most over-rated bowlers of all time the way the New Zealand media carry on about him. I can see merit in Patel playing sometimes, but he's not New Zealand's saviour and he's not a better bowler than Vettori just because he outbowled him in a game or two. He's not better than the seamers either: I really enjoy watching him bowl but he's just not very effective.

Anyway, I'd keep Franklin around. He's definitely improved his batting a bit in recent times (although I think we can call the #6 experiment a failure) and I think he's gradually getting back into some decent bowling rhythm. The first spell he bowled in the third Test for example was vintage Franklin and I think he's a better new ball option than Mills (particularly recent-Mills) and Southee, even ignoring his batting. I think some people have forgotten how good a bowler Franklin was before his injury - hell I think even Franklin may have forgotten it. He needs to get back to that on start focus on his bowling primarily again.

I'd be looking at this:

3. Flynn
4. Taylor
5. Ryder
6. Oram/Patel
7. McCullum
8. Vettori
9. Franklin
10. O'Brien
11. Martin

If Patel plays he obviously slots in at 9 with everyone else moving up one.

Openers... well they're anyone's guess. The funny thing is, New Zealand seem to have been reasonably happy with one of their openers and unhappy with the other one at all times since the tour of South Africa - but the one they're happy with seems to change each series. They seem to have a short life-spam of decentness and then become the designated public whipping boy while their newer partner is pressure-free.

- Against South Africa, Cumming opened with Papps. Cumming showed "fight" and was retained, while Papps was dropped for Bell who was in career-best domestic form.
- Against Bangladesh (at home), Cumming opened with Bell. Bell was revelation scoring a ton while Cumming was disappointing and dropped for Jamie How who had performed well in the ODIs just prior.
- Against England (at home), Bell opened with How. How looked really good and made lots of starts while Bell's technique was horrible - he was dropped for Aaron Redmond who was in career-best domestic form.

The cycle was broken here for a bit as How actually didn't become the one immediately under pressure - Redmond, unlike the others, wasn't decent for the first few Tests of his stint. Strangely enough though he lasted longer than many, playing the series against England (away), Bangladesh (away) and Australia (away). How was disappointing here too but the pressure remained on Redmond who was eventually dropped. McIntosh, who like his predecessors was in career-best domestic form, was brought in for him.

The cycle then resumed as normal though with McIntosh scoring a hundred on debut against the West Indies with How subsequently struggling and becoming the fashionable man to criticise. True to form, How was dropped for the man of the moment, Martin Guptill, who proceeded, of course, to outperform McIntosh early on.

If the cycle is to continue on from here, McIntosh will be dropped for AN Other who who start well while Guptill tapers off and becomes the man under pressure. Guptill will then be dropped for AN Nother who will begin well, outscoring AN Other.

The moral to the story is, the established man is always doomed.. unless his partner is Redmond.
 
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S.P. Fleming

U19 Cricketer
btw, I am honestly genuinely exited about the future of this side. As some of you have mentioned our 3-5 with Flynn, Ryder and Taylor has the POTENTIAL to be world class. Guptill is in there for the long haul and looks the part but desperately needs an opener.

I am a big supporter of Jeetan Patel and see him as one of our top 3 test match bowlers and therefore he should always play. Not sure about Southee looking forward, I really hope he is as good as some make out but I am starting to doubt how good he is. Trent Boult is overhyped IMO and Mechlenaghan is a younger Mark Gillespie so I am concerned whether this side will be able to take 20 test wickets looking ahead.
 

ret

International Debutant
Guptill
xx
Flynn
Taylor
Ryder
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Patel/Southee
O'Brien
Martin

My personal opinion:

I think that you need to stick with that spine of the side. If Oram goes out, then bring in an Elliott type and bat him at 7. You have to back your four bowlers to get the job done, with Oram as a luxury bowling option. Would rather see NZ go with an extra batter even if Oram is not available, it's not too much of a stretch to get 10 overs out of Ryder, which should be as many as he'd need to bowl if you guys bowled 100 overs.
Wouldn't a combination of Oram and Franklin be more effective with the bat than a 'xx'? .... I don't know how effective Oram is with the ball in tests and Franklin didn't look that impressive too so again having them as a unit could help as one of them could have a good day with the ball

I would have Flynn move up to opening and accommodate these two, along with Patel
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Also how do our fast-bowling stocks look at the moment, Martin is 34, O'Brien is 32, and Southee is no way ready for International cricket. Kyle Mills isn't test match standard either, so who do we have to replace these two if they get injured. Trent Boult isn't ready, Neil Wagner still has two years to go, and McClenaghan who someone keeps harping on about is hardly ready to play first-class cricket. So are our bowling stocks really that low.
Think it's potentially enormously frustrating that, while our batting genuinely looks to be on the up-and-up the next couple of years with Taylor, Ryder, Guptill, Flynn, Williamson etc, our fast bowling looks to be heading south at a rate of knots.

Martin will probably play one more season max, O'Brien is also relatively old and may become injury-prone *crosses fingers that this doesn't happen*, Mills is poor at tests unless in excellent form, Franklin thinks he's a batsman and Southee has just shown that he's not *there* yet. The leading backup is Arnel, 30 years old and injury prone. Also not considering injury-prone Ian Butler for tests.

Where are all the fast bowlers aged in this big gap between Martin/O'Brien and Southee?

In 1-2 years with a couple of key injuries/retirements our bowling attack could be as poor as it was in the 90s when we were forced to pick guys like Walmsley, Kennedy, Bulfin, de Groen etc. And this could be at a time when, amazingly, our batting is peaking as the best it's been in years.

One thing that would really help would be to get Daryl Tuffey back, but can't pin our hopes on the ICL issue being resolved.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Think it's potentially enormously frustrating that, while our batting genuinely looks to be on the up-and-up the next couple of years with Taylor, Ryder, Guptill, Flynn, Williamson etc, our fast bowling looks to be heading south at a rate of knots.
The funny thing about this is, it seemed the exact opposite just a season or so ago.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
If the cycle is to continue on from here, McIntosh will be dropped for AN Other who who start well while Guptill tapers off and becomes the man under pressure. Guptill will then be dropped for AN Nother who will begin well, outscoring AN Other.

The moral to the story is, the established man is always doomed.. unless his partner is Redmond.
Hmmmm, I see your master plan... a cunning scheme would be to pick Aaron Redmond to partner Guptill, thus removing the pressure from Guptill and allowing him to perform reasonably for a period of time. When the baying for Redmond's head becomes too loud, drop him for a joke opener (say, Vettori) to continue to relieve the pressure on Guptill, continuing to pick joke openers or Redmond as they get discarded. At least Redmond bowls legspinz too. Eventually and without anyone realising it, Guptill will be averaging 60 in tests and will be generally awesome. Then finally drop the joke opener and pick *young awesome opener* to partner Guptill, and the heinous self-perpetuating cycle will be broken!

Done. I'll send a letter to NZC.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
The funny thing about this is, it seemed the exact opposite just a season or so ago.
Haha yeah, but then a year or two ticked over and half our leading bowlers turned the big three-oh. Or got injured or lost form or failed to live up to promise.

But it's the age thing that bugs me most about our seamers at the moment.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Wouldn't a combination of Oram and Franklin be more effective with the bat than a 'xx'? .... I don't know how effective Oram is with the ball in tests and Franklin didn't look that impressive too so again having them as a unit could help as one of them could have a good day with the ball

I would have Flynn move up to opening and accommodate these two, along with Patel
from the guys that I have seen play

- Guptill
- Flynn
- Taylor
- Ryder
- McCullum
- Oram
- Vettori
- Franklin
- Patel
- O Brian
- Martin
Well, you've just named New Zealand's eleven best Test cricketers (with the exception, perhaps of an in-form Kyle Mills) but it's just not that simple.

Flynn, despite being a seemingly tough character, is at a very fragile point of his career at the moment. He's a young batsman who was picked out of desperation based on one okay domestic season and a some Richard Hadlee-inspired hype. Credit to him, he's taken his chance so far (to an extent) by really digging in and showing some solidarity in most of his Test innings, as well as hitting a fluent ton against the West Indies. However, he's still a baby in terms of not only Test cricket but First Class cricket as a whole, so the last thing he needs is to be thrust up into a position he's not used to. It could ruin the bloke for years to come and decrease the output New Zealand are getting from their 3-6 at the moment.

There's also the fact that Taylor has never really comfortable batting above #4 and doesn't really seem to have the shot selection to bat #3 at the moment, and the fact that McCullum at #5 has been tried and failed.

Really, if you want to pick those eleven, Franklin should be the one to open. Despite seeming to lack the class in general to bat in the top 6, he actually has a pretty good technique and didn't seem particularly troubled outside off-stump or by the ball moving back in at all - he just lacked scoring shots and played get-out shorts out of frustration. He did struggle against the spinners particularly but if anything, opening would protect him from that a bit. Most of all, if he fails, he's comparatively dispensable compared to someone like Flynn who is an integral part of the middle order and it wouldn't force all the other batsmen to move positions. I'm not saying I'd open with Franklin if I was picking an eleven but it sure makes a lot more sense than opening with Flynn.

Even beyond all that, the balance is off. You've basically picked Oram as a specialist batsman - he's the sixth best bowler in that team, and there's Ryder as well. There's no need to have that many bowling options at the expense of an actual opening batsman.
 
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Polo23

International Debutant
Guptill
How
Flynn
Taylor
Ryder
Williamson
McCullum
Vettori
Bond
Tuffey
O'Brien

What a team.
 

ret

International Debutant
might not be a bad idea to open with Franklin unless/until NZ has better opening batsman available .... i have picked up 11 from the guys, i have seen play

what's up with Sinclair?
 

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