Now if we take a close look at spinners bowling in SL and has more than 15 wickets (of course BAn and ZIM excluded), the top three are Mendis 18.4, Warne 20.5 / 21.5 (including / not including the test against Pakistan), Murali 21.1, Vettori 23.3, KJ Silva 27.7, P STrang 28.8. All the rest of the spiners are not effective in SL. Especially when career averages of Saqlain, Harbhajan and Kumble compared to their feats in SL it's mind boggling how unresponsive are SL pitches to some spinners.
If you do the same for West Indian pitches in 1970-1996 era, you would see the same results. Opposing fast bowlers not doing well there. And astonishingly best bowlers (by average) in SL and even in Pakistan are fast bowlers themselves. The rant about helpful pithces is not much of a value, mostly what matters is who is at the other end. No matter how helpful the pitch for a spinner, if SIdhu is at the batsman's end.
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Yet this fact goes unnoticed in that statistical analysis, hence it is a huge flaw. A lot of these kinds of points can be made. When talking about other bowlers or batsmen failing on grounds that are usually suitable you should factor in that the home team is specialised to play on those pitches - the pitches are made for their benefit - so they will always be better suited.
It's no surprise that Malcolm Marshall will be even better suited to his home conditions than some other pacer - because not only are the pitches a natural help but he is used to the conditions even moreso. Just because Imran Khan has to learn to swing the ball to be successful doesn't make it any tougher to bowl on those dead pitches of years before.
And I just checked for spinners and pacers in Sri Lanka:
In fact, the ONLY two countries where SPIN does better than PACE are Sri Lanka and India. And as you can see, the difference is much more in Sri Lanka than it is in India. The only other countries to have even higher averages than Australia for spinners are Zimbabwe and the West Indies. Even you have to accept this.
Last edited by Ikki; 21-12-2008 at 04:42 AM.
I think you grossly misunderstood what I am saying. For great spinners like Murali and Warne, the conditions does not matter much. More than conditions, what matters is the batsman who's facing them.I am not going to really get into it. What we know is that Warne did better in Sri Lanka than Murali himself did and we all know that Australia is one of the worst places in the world for spin bowling. For Murali, Sri Lanka's really only hope, they made the pitches for him to succeed most. Even Lehmann was turning them well. For Warne, he was one of many players, and pitches were not prepared for his solitary liking. And this is not about Warne v Murali, but even still, Australia has been much more difficult to bowl spin at - Tests or FC cricket.
Now going with this argument, Warne would have used "tough" Aussie conditions to better use than others, hence and advantage over others while bowling in Australia?It's no surprise that Malcolm Marshall will be even better suited to his home conditions than some other pacer - because not only are the pitches a natural help but he is used to the conditions even moreso. Just because Imran Khan has to learn to swing the ball to be successful doesn't make it any tougher to bowl on those dead pitches of years before.
Post 1992, the stats look like thisAnd I just checked for spinners and pacers in Sri Lanka:
In fact, the ONLY two countries where SPIN does better than PACE are Sri Lanka and India. And as you can see, the difference is much more in Sri Lanka than it is in India. The only other countries to have even higher averages than Australia for spinners are Zimbabwe and the West Indies. Even you have to accept this
overall: spin 31.40, pace 34.30
visiting: spin 44.12, pace 36.35
overall: spin 32.78 pace: 35.91
visiting spin 38.66 pace 36.34
overall: spin 36.34 pace 33.14
visiting: spin 48.63 pace 41.10
This clearly shows spinners average in SL is low due to excellent work of Murali, and visiting spinners ahve found it tougher than pacers to bowl in SL. Similarly in India Kumble, Harbhajan, Raju and Chauhan caused that spinners avrage to drop. Once more, visiting spinners have found it tougher. And Australia, the story is the same. Actually visitng pacers have found SL and India better suited for fast bowling than Australia!!! Once again, the person who faces matters, more than the conditions
Secondly, my point was not regarding merely visitors but the bowlers who bowled at home...because they play half their Tests on pitches suited for THEM.
Thirdly, with regards to Warne and Murali, the point was Australia was much tougher to bowl spin in than Sri Lanka. You haven't/can't disprove that. hence that is an advantage the other doesn't get and it isn't rectified in that analysis.
For me, an analysis that is looking at SR but doesn't factor in the pitch is useless. I don't want another Warne v Murali argument. I just brought it up because it is an obvious example. Get over it. Finito.
Last edited by Ikki; 22-12-2008 at 08:58 AM.
now, where do you guys place malcolm marshall in your list of favorite bowlers?
I'm not like some people in being offended by my threads being taken off the exact title topic, but FFS Murali-vs-Warne stuff cropping-up ANYWHERE other than THE thread is annoying. Can someone move the above posts there?
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I decided not to really respond to your non-sense. I already explained the posts/side-argument. Someone who
It is not your job to say what post goes where. But I don't expect someone who makes the same arguments ad nauseam in almost every thread to understand.
Last edited by Ikki; 23-12-2008 at 05:23 AM.
It's my job to suggest what goes where, same as every other poster on this forum. If people who have the powers to move posts wish to move, that's their job.
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