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Murali's action not clean: Gilchrist

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FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
I think Gilchrist is more complaining at the ICC for changing the rules than anything else.
Yeah. That's how it seems to me also. Not really a huge shock is it? It's not exactly an uncommon view that the ICC abandoned the original spirit of the law when they made the changes. Can't see why anyone would be stunned that it's one Gilchrist held.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
It would be boring if it had ever been dealt with. Instead...
It's been dealt with, as Richard said. Some people just don't like how. That was going to be the case either way.

Not sure why Murali seems to be the focus. Harbhajan chucks his doosra, Sreessanth chucks, and so did Akhtar and Lee.

Or rather, I should say they look like they chuck when I see them bowl. I'll trust the scientists who've measured the angles though.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Please explain.

Murali has and always had clealy chucked.

The decision to keep allowing him to play is nothing short of political. If he had have been English Id have been embarassed to have had him represent the team.

Just as I was embarrassed when I saw Johan Botha bowl for the first time and Shabbir Ahmed.

Ive been involved with games where umpires have refused to call chuckers as 'its not called at the international level so Im not calling it here'

It has had ramifications throughout cricket. Its a joke, an old joke, but still a joke.
Well, by the old law, even McGrath chucked, so do you keep going with the old or change it to something that makes sense? This is irrelevent to Murali.
 

howardj

International Coach
Well, by the old law, even McGrath chucked, so do you keep going with the old or change it to something that makes sense? This is irrelevent to Murali.
It's all a question of degree though.

Anyway, it's good to see a player write a book in which he states his opinions, rather than just bland platitudes, such as one of Ponting's tour diaries.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Please explain.

Murali has and always had clealy chucked.

The decision to keep allowing him to play is nothing short of political. If he had have been English Id have been embarassed to have had him represent the team.

Just as I was embarrassed when I saw Johan Botha bowl for the first time and Shabbir Ahmed.

Ive been involved with games where umpires have refused to call chuckers as 'its not called at the international level so Im not calling it here'

It has had ramifications throughout cricket. Its a joke, an old joke, but still a joke.
Umpires have no business calling bowlers IMO, unless they're baseball pitcher style 40-odd degrees plus flexation stuff. We know how poor the eye is at judging things like arm straightening and we know that many bowlers have been unfairly victimised because their actions look worse than others when in reality there's little difference. Calling a bowler in a game is potentially disastrous for their career, and can often turn-out to be a mistake. Any action on suspect actions must be discreet and behind-the-scenes.

The only way to have a completely fair "chucking" scenario is to put a brace on the bowling-arm of a bowler at the start of every over. Unless this is done (and it's not exactly likely) there will be no particularly good law on legal bowling actions. Either you'll have an unfair law that's policeable (the old one) or a fair law that's unpoliceable (the current one).
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Well, by the old law, even McGrath chucked, so do you keep going with the old or change it to something that makes sense? This is irrelevent to Murali.
The "old law" never specifically mentioned any degree of flexion until pressure came on to apply some kind of scientific measurement to what a "throw" was. The "old law" dealt with a particular standard kind of bowling action, and the umpire's interpretation of the bowler's action in relation to it. Essentially, whether or not the umpire felt the bowler was straightening his arm to attempt to gain some sort of advantage. It was a law based around intent, not X degree of elbow flexion.

Someone like McGrath, having an absolutely textbook bowling action, would never have come under the slightest consideration as a chucker under said "old law" and it's facetious to suggest such. I think the point with the complaint about the ICCs rule changes is this, the political change to remove the umpire's judgement element, rather than the exact degree or flexion or whatever. That's why it isn't a surprise that Gilchrist would feel this way, it's a pretty common perspective.

edit: The last line of Richard's post is quite right. The old law could be and occasionally was enforced on the field, the new law is more or less intentionally designed so that it can never be enforced at all. That's why we've had bowlers who were later determined to be throwing the ball actually win test matches for their team in the last few years. How anyone could think this is a good situation for the game is beyond me, and apparently beyond Gilchrist as well. Anyway, THAT is the complaint here.
 
Last edited:

Precambrian

Banned
Please explain.

Murali has and always had clealy chucked.

The decision to keep allowing him to play is nothing short of political. If he had have been English Id have been embarassed to have had him represent the team.

Just as I was embarrassed when I saw Johan Botha bowl for the first time and Shabbir Ahmed.

Ive been involved with games where umpires have refused to call chuckers as 'its not called at the international level so Im not calling it here'

It has had ramifications throughout cricket. Its a joke, an old joke, but still a joke.
Murali has chucked. So has other 99% of all International bowlers. Including McGrath and Brett Lee.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
It's all a question of degree though.
OK, so the old law had different degree allowable for fast bowlers and slow bowlers. People who study this for a profession said it is not possible for the human eye to accurately determine flex below 15 degrees.

So you can keep your head in the sand or listen to the science. It's that simple. 15 degree rule made sense. And people can be reported still - it's that now it's science that decides if people are chucking, not some idiot on the field.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Well, by the old law, even McGrath chucked, so do you keep going with the old or change it to something that makes sense? This is irrelevent to Murali.
Absolute rubbish. The law is that the Umpires call what they believe to be a throw.

"Although it is the primary responsibility of the striker's end umpire
to ensure the fairness of a delivery in this respect, there is nothing
in this Law to debar the bowler's end umpire from calling and
signalling No ball if he considers that the ball has been thrown."

In that sense McGrath and millions of others didnt no-ball, Murali and others did.

Umpires see and know the game, the scientist arguement is the biggest cop out Ive ever heard. To lump McGrath with Murali devalues any validity it may have and makes it nothing more than a tool to justify a position.

Any cricketer with an ounce of experience can spot a blatant chucker.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah. That's how it seems to me also. Not really a huge shock is it? It's not exactly an uncommon view that the ICC abandoned the original spirit of the law when they made the changes. Can't see why anyone would be stunned that it's one Gilchrist held.
I don't really see this "the original spirit" stuff myself. About the only thing I can see it might allude to would be "if the arm looks bent then the bowler's a chucker, if it doesn't then he's not", which as research has shown is ridiculous, as it's based on flawed observations.

Don't know about anyone else, but I'd be extremely glad to be rid of this.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Someone like McGrath, having an absolutely textbook bowling action, would never have come under the slightest consideration as a chucker under said "old law" and it's facetious to suggest such.
That's my point. He would have never come under suspicion despite breaking the old law. If you thought that was OK, that's fair enough.
 

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Absolute rubbish. The law is that the Umpires call what they believe to be a throw.

"Although it is the primary responsibility of the striker's end umpire
to ensure the fairness of a delivery in this respect, there is nothing
in this Law to debar the bowler's end umpire from calling and
signalling No ball if he considers that the ball has been thrown."

In that sense McGrath and millions of others didnt no-ball, Murali and others did.

Umpires see and know the game, the scientist arguement is the biggest cop out Ive ever heard. To lump McGrath with Murali devalues any validity it may have and makes it nothing more than a tool to justify a position.

Any cricketer with an ounce of experience can spot a blatant chucker.
This. Nailed it.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Any cricketer with an ounce of experience can spot a blatant chucker.
Any cricketer (or cricket watcher) with an ounce of experience can spot someone whose arm appears more bent than another's, but as I say, I don't really think these things should be based on what the action looks like. Instead I think it should be based on what it is.
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
I don't see why "belief" is relevant in this debate - the "belief" is, to put it simply, wrong.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Umpires see and know the game, the scientist arguement is the biggest cop out Ive ever heard. To lump McGrath with Murali devalues any validity it may have and makes it nothing more than a tool to justify a position.

Any cricketer with an ounce of experience can spot a blatant chucker.
It's a scientific fact that some people's action 'looks' better than it is, and others 'worse'. If the point of contention is the bent of the elbow, then you can't trust a person on the field. It's very easy for the eyes to be misled. It's irrelevent if you can 'spot' a blatant chucker.

Now, if you want to define chucking to be what the umpire believes to be chucking, rather than the actual bent of the elbow, then that's fine, but I don't think that would be right.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Absolute rubbish. The law is that the Umpires call what they believe to be a throw.
Key point; what they 'believe' to be a throw and what actually was turned out to be different things when the slow-mo cams were turned on.

Any cricketer with an ounce of experience can spot a blatant chucker.
Maybe. But what about the not-so-blatant ones? What constituted a throw needed quantification because opinion and judgement varies so much between umpires so as to render the policing of the law essentially guesswork. Coincidence that the rise of tech associated with this came about with rumblings about changing of the law? Nope.

People get it wrong. The tech showed that.
 

Precambrian

Banned
Absolute rubbish. The law is that the Umpires call what they believe to be a throw.

"Although it is the primary responsibility of the striker's end umpire
to ensure the fairness of a delivery in this respect, there is nothing
in this Law to debar the bowler's end umpire from calling and
signalling No ball if he considers that the ball has been thrown."

In that sense McGrath and millions of others didnt no-ball, Murali and others did.

Umpires see and know the game, the scientist arguement is the biggest cop out Ive ever heard. To lump McGrath with Murali devalues any validity it may have and makes it nothing more than a tool to justify a position.

Any cricketer with an ounce of experience can spot a blatant chucker.
Another case of glorifying "old cricket". The game has changed and perceptions have changed. If something is to be established without doubt, science is the best tool available. Just because some umpire sees it differently through his tinted glasses, means nothing. Scientific studies have established beyond doubt that the earlier threshold for bend of arm was absolute rubbish. And so the law had to be changed, otherwise Murali and another 99% bowlers would have been chucking and thus the game would have become a joke.

Also, regarding doubts whether he still chucks, there was that demonstration with an un-bendable accessory attached to his arm, in the presence of Mark Nicholas, where Murali bowled the traditional offie, the doosra and the top spinner.

Of course. doubting Thomases who will never believe till Kingdom come will continue to label him as chucker. They imho are losers who are yet to come into terms with the New world.
 
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