Who's better, Lillee or Hadlee?

[Craig]

Even people talk about Hadlee's lack of pace compared to Lillee, Hadlee himself early on in his career had a fair bit of pace about him, but he as he got older and wiser, he decided to cut down on his pace (which was something that did not go down to well at the time) and try and work out batsmen and use his skills to get them out, rather then rely on pace to get batsmen out. I guess it did work for him in the end he was able to enjoy a long career relatively injury free (compared to Lillee).

Anyway I always thought Malcolm Marshall was more or less considered the greatest fast bowler ever, if he wasn't then he sure wasn't far off it IMO.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Forgot Collinge. never knew he bowled alongside Bruce Taylor though.

He certainly did in England in 1973 but they were at opposite ends of their careers.

 

[Flem274*]

(BWL)Richard Collinge average: 29.25
(ALL) Bruce Taylor average: 26.60 (bat average 20.40)

Not bad. Very good actualy. I know its a basic way of looking at the two but its interesting, to me anyway.

 

[Manee]

Even people talk about Hadlee's lack of pace compared to Lillee, Hadlee himself early on in his career had a fair bit of pace about him, but he as he got older and wiser, he decided to cut down on his pace (which was something that did not go down to well at the time) and try and work out batsmen and use his skills to get them out, rather then rely on pace to get batsmen out. I guess it did work for him in the end he was able to enjoy a long career relatively injury free (compared to Lillee).

I have read that Hadlee's decision to cut down on pace came very early in his international career - after his first international match, IIRC.

 

[Flem274*]

I have read that Hadlee's decision to cut down on pace came very early in his international career - after his first international match, IIRC.

Nah IIRC he did it after an injury. He cut down on pace and shortened his run up.

Now, if only Shane Bond had tried that. (admittedly he did cut down on pace and as a result, lasted a full season!!!)

 

[Richard]

(BWL)Richard Collinge average: 29.25
(ALL) Bruce Taylor average: 26.60 (bat average 20.40)

Not bad. Very good actualy. I know its a basic way of looking at the two but its interesting, to me anyway.

No look at Richard Collinge's record is complete without a home\away split. Collinge was an absolutely fantastic bowler at home, but not very often away.

From what I've heard, he could be a reluctant tourist, as he was very close to his family and did not particularly like leaving them.

I have little hesitation in suggesting that, were Collinge a more happy tourist, he could be unequivocally New Zealand's second-greatest bowler. Actually, that's a very good idea...

 

[Flem274*]

No look at Richard Collinge's record is complete without a home\away split. Collinge was an absolutely fantastic bowler at home, but not very often away.

From what I've heard, he could be a reluctant tourist, as he was very close to his family and did not particularly like leaving them.

I have little hesitation in suggesting that, were Collinge a more happy tourist, he could be unequivocally New Zealand's second-greatest bowler.

Sounds like a Durham bloke we know of...

EDIT: Jack Cowie is number two. Easily.

 

[Richard]

Haha, was actually considering saying that in that post, but decided against. I've always felt this was overstated in Harmison's case - Harmison IMO is simply not particularly good. Collinge categorically was.

 

[Migara]

Manoj Prabhakar getting 3 votes! interesting. To be fair to the man with a moustache, he was a useful all rounder, and India will die for a one like him at this point of time.

 

[Richard]

There's a few people on CW who always, almost without fail, vote irrelevant-option. Even in the most remarkable of cases.

 

[Smudge]

I have read that Hadlee's decision to cut down on pace came very early in his international career - after his first international match, IIRC.

He was still a tearaway (attempted one) until the late 70s at least. I'm pretty sure the "pop-gun" run-up (as described by NZ cricket writer Don Cameron) was Hadlee's staple from season 1980/81.

 

[Engle]

Hadlee would have to sit a pew or two behind Lillee
He never garned the sort of awe thay Lillee did in his heyday.

Lillee was the complete fast bowler.
Hadlee wasn't.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Hadlee would have to sit a pew or two behind Lillee
He never garned the sort of awe thay Lillee did in his heyday.

Lillee was the complete fast bowler.
Hadlee wasn't.

Much as I agree with you in terms of who was better, it's a fairly, uh, geriatric reasoning you're wheeling out.

Facing Hadlee in comparison to his partners was 'like facing the World XI at one end and the Ilford second XI at the other (forget the source).' Farcical to suggest that Hadlee didn't have an aura of his own by his heyday, even simply by dint of him playing Atlas to NZ's sky.

Moreover, even Bacchus Marsh admitted Lillee's most glaring weakness (yes, he had a weakness) was his lack of a reliable yorker. Hadlee had no such qualms in surpassing his hero there.

 

[silentstriker]

I think it's really close, I could see it either way. I voted for Hadlee.

 

[Indipper]

Anyway, I've always been aware that Hadlee thought Lillee superior to himself. This, I've always maintained, is inevitable - Hadlee modelled himself on Lillee and almost never will the pupil believe himself superior to the master. See the fact that Michael Holding rates Anderson Roberts better than himself, something I imagine near enough no-one else would do.

Is that AME Roberts? Or is there another Anderson Roberts I am unaware of?

 

[Prince EWS]

I have to say, though, I foresee a pretty depressing case of almost all Aussies voting Lillee and almost all Kiwis voting Hadlee

Well my vote certainly adds fuel to the fire.

Or perhaps it just answers GIMH's question better than I'm willing to admit.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Well my vote certainly adds fuel to the fire.

Or perhaps it just answers GIMH's question better than I'm willing to admit.

Although it might be influenced by nationalistic bias, it will also suffer from the ill-informed Statsguru generation who remember neither but can produce a spreadsheet showing Lillee never bowled in India so can't possibly be superior to bowlers who did.

 

[silentstriker]

Although it might be influenced by nationalistic bias, it will also suffer from the ill-informed Statsguru generation who remember neither but can produce a spreadsheet showing Lillee never bowled in India so can't possibly be superior to bowlers who did.

Nice strawman.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Nice strawman.

I'm glad you agree (although straw man is two words.)

 

[silentstriker]

I'm glad you agree (although straw man is two words.)

I'm glad that you've just knowingly used a logical fallacy as the basis for your argument....