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a cause for concern?
- Thread starter ret
- Start date
ret
International Debutant
SL bowlers did not bowl like the SA bowlers in A'bad who bundled out India for 76
at Melbourne it was the inspirational spell by the Australians bowlers
at A'bad, it was the sensational performance by the South Africans bowlers
at Colombo, Mendis and Murali spun magic
if not of these then the stalwarts would have cracked big 100s .... it's more like a race to see which team bundles out India for the lowest
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Starting from Melbourne to Colombo, the average Indian score per wicket (including bowlers) is 30.92...In the said period, this figure for all test teams combined is lower (29.58)...In the said period, 4 of the Indian batsmen averaged over 40...Other two (Dravid and Ganguly) average over 33...Not glorious performances...But if this is the instance of their worst 8 match patch with the bat in ages, then I salute that batting line-up...
On the other hand, in the said period, Indian bowlers overall average an unbelievable 44.15...Still there are some people on this forum who like to kick the asses of Ganguly and Laxman and Dravid because for ages they have seen this batsmen averaging in the 50s or 45s or 40s and suddenly their averages have come down by 5 (that too for 8 tests)...And they are happy with the crap bowling India is producing test after test...Their cheer knows no bound when they suddenly see an Ishant or a Harbhajan bowl an inspirational spell once in 8 tests...
Edit: In the said period, Ishant, Kumble, RP, Sreesanth and Zaheer all average way over 40 with the ball...Learn to understand where the problem lies before making a comment on it...
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ret
International Debutant
do you know what I m talking about? .... fyi, I am taking abt batting 'collapses' like
- collapsing in the 2nd innings at Adelaide, where they made a mess out of what should have been a easy draw on a decent wkt
- collapsing in the Chennai test after being 481/2, where they made a mess of a good start on a flat pitch
- collapsing in the first innings at A'dad for 76, which is unbelievable
- collapsing for 138 in the 2nd inning at Colombo [without even a fight] is pathetic
no one is claiming that Indian bowlers are doing their job but the batting, which is the subject of this thread and India's strength [if you didn't take a look at the first post of this thread], has been pathetic
it's not like the collapses have been happening once in a while. there is a pattern to it whether the pitch is bowling friendly or batting friendly or sporting .... and one of the reasons for the batting collapses is probably the fact that some of the batsmen are past their best so they are not able to be as consistent as they were
the focus is also on batting because its the stronger component of the Indian team. the batsmen are more experienced relative to the bowlers, with some of them being amongst the best in the world and the line up considered as one of the best in the world too .... despite such credentials, it's failed to deliver on a consistent basis in the recent period and sadly has fallen to abysmal levels
as I said, no one is claiming that bowling is doing its job .... there is a polarization of opinion in batting, which is also another reason why it's being discussed here
your post is irrelevant to the issue being discussed on this thread .... and whats funny is that after wasting your time on writing an irrelevant post, you think that you have it in you to tell others to learn to understand things before commenting
let me also give you a tip. if someone like you thinks that bowling is one of the problems then its probably an obvious issue *duh* .... here we are talking abt not so obvious issue, which implies that someone like you is going to struggle to get it and waste his time writing an irrelevant post like you just did
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
So this thread is only about Indian batting collapses and not about their good performances? So, in the next test if India is all out for 200, that'll be a subject of this thread, and if India makes 600 that won't come under the perview of this thread? Why take things in isolation? When I just mentioned the performances of Indian batsmen in the period you're mentioning that becomes an irrelevant post?...do you know what I m talking about? .... fyi, I am taking abt batting 'collapses' like
- collapsing in the 2nd innings at Adelaide, where they made a mess out of what should have been a easy draw on a decent wkt
- collapsing in the Chennai test after being 481/2, where they made a mess of a good start on a flat pitch
- collapsing in the first innings at A'dad for 76, which is unbelievable
- collapsing for 138 in the 2nd inning at Colombo [without even a fight] is pathetic
no one is claiming that Indian bowlers are doing their job but the batting, which is the subject of this thread and India's strength [if you didn't take a look at the first post of this thread], has been pathetic
it's not like the collapses have been happening once in a while. there is a pattern to it whether the pitch is bowling friendly or batting friendly or sporting .... and one of the reasons for the batting collapses is probably the fact that some of the batsmen are past their best so they are not able to be as consistent as they were
the focus is also on batting because its the stronger component of the Indian team. the batsmen are more experienced relative to the bowlers, with some of them being amongst the best in the world and the line up considered as one of the best in the world too .... despite such credentials, it's failed to deliver on a consistent basis in the recent period and sadly has fallen to abysmal levels
as I said, no one is claiming that bowling is doing its job .... there is a polarization of opinion in batting, which is also another reason why it's being discussed here
your post is irrelevant to the issue being discussed on this thread .... and whats funny is that after wasting your time on writing an irrelevant post, you think that you have it in you to tell others to learn to understand things before commenting
let me also give you a tip. if someone like you thinks that bowling is one of the problems then its probably an obvious issue *duh* .... here we are talking abt not so obvious issue, which implies that someone like you is going to struggle to get it and waste his time writing an irrelevant post like you just did
I remember someone (not sure if it were you) mentioning in this thread that Indian batsmen aren't giving bowlers any chance to win...So, in the last test in Colombo when SL scored 600/6 did the bowlers give the batsmen any chance of winning? It is in the context of the above comment that I mentioned the performance of bowlers...And that comment doesn't become irrelevant and my post becomes? Why? Because it was against some comments made by you?...If no one is allowed to say anything against what you feel then what is the purpose of chatting?
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Come on, if the batting is stronger than the bowling department, then that's an achievement of the batsmen, and not their faults...
If some of them are among the bests in the world, then that's their achievement, not their fault...
If they have credentials that doesn't imply they have to score above 400 in every inning...You wouldn't have any problem if batsmen like Yuvraj and Rohit played in place of these experienced ones and they failed only because they're inexperienced?
And why you say Indian bowlers are relatively inexperienced? It's not that Kumble, Harbhajan and Zaheer has only played some 5 test matches each....If you say Ishant is relatively inexperienced, then so is a batsman like Gautam Gambhir.
ret
International Debutant
there have hardly been any good performances on a 'consistent' basis in 07/08 season .... most of the times, the have done well in one inning and failed in another be it in Melbourne [both innings] Sydney [2nd innings], Adelaide [2nd innings], Chennai [after being 481/2], A'bad [76 all out] and then Colombo [both innings] so if you see then its 8 innings out of 15 that they have batted in, thats almost like once in every test and coz of that Ind has usually been found trying to meet ends
I don't think I said that Indian batsmen aren't giving chances to bowlers. moreover your points become irrelevant because you are trying to shift the argument from the problem area to whats worse
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
If it hasn't been good on a consistent basis, that implies it hasn't been bad on a consistent basis...I have shown you that on an average the performances have been good, at least better than all test teams combined in the said period...Sehwag, Sachin and Laxman have been good while Ganguly and Dravid have been average...
So, what's your main point? I mean what's the purpose of this discussion? Do you feel that Ganguly and Laxman (or, maybe Dravid) should be dropped and players like Yuvraj and Rohit should be given chances in their places?...If that's your point, then I would say no...A player like Dravid can't be dropped only because he averages 33 in the last 8 matches...Laxman can't be dropped since his performances have been good...Ganguly has played some critical knocks too...Yuvraj has got many chances in the test level but unfortunately hasn't been able to capitalise...
And if you think (like me) that no one should be dropped at least in the next 4-5 matches and the batting combination that India is playing is perfect in this point of time, then there's no point discussing about it...
Yes, I agree their performances very recently haven't been as good as they have been in the last 10 years or so, but to me it's far from a huge threat till now...
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Uppercut
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I think there's a tendency for Indians to rate their batsmen just a little bit too highly sometimes. In this particular match, i'd put it the collapses moreso down to exceptional bowling from M&M than poor Indian batting, except for abominations like D Karthik.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
I think there is going to be a case soon for dropping either Ganguly or Dravid from the side and accomodate Yuvraj Singh.
I am not convinced it is such a great idea to throw Rohit to the wolves as it were when the seniors are having problems reading Mendis and then castigate him if he fails. Having said that, if he was brought in for the next game in place of one of these two seniors I would not think it terribly amiss.
By the way, why not get Dravid to keep wickets and drop Karthik. That way you can have your new cake and keep your old pastries too
As far as bowling goes, Harbhajan needs to go. How long are we going to carry him in the side ?
I am not convinced it is such a great idea to throw Rohit to the wolves as it were when the seniors are having problems reading Mendis and then castigate him if he fails. Having said that, if he was brought in for the next game in place of one of these two seniors I would not think it terribly amiss.
By the way, why not get Dravid to keep wickets and drop Karthik. That way you can have your new cake and keep your old pastries too
As far as bowling goes, Harbhajan needs to go. How long are we going to carry him in the side ?
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Yuvraj has already played 23 tests and averages a not-so-impressive 32...He was given chance in the recently concluded home series against RSA also and he failed...On the other hand, Ganguly has played some gritty innings in the last 7-8 tests...You can't drop Dravid from tests until his form is miserable which it isn't....I think there is going to be a case soon for dropping either Ganguly or Dravid from the side and accomodate Yuvraj Singh.
I am not convinced it is such a great idea to throw Rohit to the wolves as it were when the seniors are having problems reading Mendis and then castigate him if he fails. Having said that, if he was brought in for the next game in place of one of these two seniors I would not think it terribly amiss.
By the way, why not get Dravid to keep wickets and drop Karthik. That way you can have your new cake and keep your old pastries too
As far as bowling goes, Harbhajan needs to go. How long are we going to carry him in the side ?
Now, about Harbhajan...When the Indian bowling has been worse than miserable in the last 8 tests, Harbhajan is the only bowler (except Pathan) to have an average of less than 40! ...All of Kumble, Zaheer, Ishant (though it's being too tough on this new guy), RP and Sreesanth have been miserable in the last 8 tests...I'm not a big fan of Bhajji but logically a case can't be made to drop him at this point of time....
So, according to me, at least in this series, no change in the batting department is wanted ... Your suggestion of making Dravid keep seems a good one provided the team management has enough faith on him behind the stumps...But we badly need such a change to strengthen the batting until Dhoni comes...On the bowling department, Kumble and Bhajji should still play while I'm not too sure about which opening bowlers to play...
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ret
International Debutant
you haven't shown anything of merit except tried to create whats worse scenarios and drop the blame on bowling
i will repeat my self for the last time, in case you still didn't put 2 and 2 together
let start with Melbourne 196 and 161 .... it's a crime to be bowled out for less than 300 on that kind of pitch
i will skip Sydney for emotional reasons for what happened to our team there
Adelaide
Aus 563 .... Ind 523 and 269/7 .... more importantly in the 2nd inning here are the scores of of the top 6, 151, 0, 11, 13, 18, 12!!!!
Chennai
SA 540 & 331/5
Ind 627 .... after being 481/2
A'bad
Ind 76 & 328 .... unbelievably bad performance
SA 494
Colombo 223 and 138 .... again pathetic
they haven't been consistent .... only thing they have been consistent in is in collapsing .... take those Sehwag's knocks out and Ind could have lost 1-3 to Australia and 1-2 to SA
and the point of the discussion is already mentioned in the original post
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
So, you want Laxman and Ganguly to be dropped (according to your original post)...You opined that their records are not exceptional (in the original post)...No, they are not exceptional (for example, no one claimed that they are among the 10 best batsmen ever)...But their records are very good...Test averages over 42 or 43 are considered as very good...Since, in the original post you mentioned about their overall record, I had to mention this...
Now, let's come to their recent performances...In the last 8 tests that you are talking about, Laxman averages over 40 which is just like his overall record...I have nothing to say if you're gonna drop him on the basis of that...
Now, let's talk about Ganguly...His performances in the last 8 tests have been average as a whole (an average of 34)...Though there have been some gritty knocks like Ahmedabad 2nd inning and some others...More importantly, where do you see an apt alternative? Yuvraj? Has played 23 test matches and averages 32...Failed miserably in recent test matches also...Then Rohit Sharma? I have always believed that a test cap shouldn't be given for experiment, it has to be earned...Test match is way too serious for experiments...What exceptional has Rohit Sharma done except his heroics in 20 over version of the game? His FC record is pathetic (Manoj Tiwary has an FC record which is 10 times as good)...Even being an ODI specialist he's not good enough to average 28 in ODI...
So, I ask again, what's the point? Criticism is good only if it's constructive criticism...
ret
International Debutant
this is getting funny now, I m talking abt the general hype of the 'big 4' and I m clearly saying that it's a matter of debate as to how big 2 of the big 4 are. as far as i m concerned the term 'big 4' is a misnomer
for the 100th time, I am talking abt the collapses here, which i have documented again and again like in the quote below
yes, i think that someone like Rohit could be given a chance [and what you think on that is not my concern], along with someone like Badrinath .... thats not for their records [as it should be clear by now that i m looking at other things besides FC averages] but the talent and ability that they have displayed .... they can be played in place of 'whoever' is under-forming
not surprisingly, the original point made in March, which is quoted below, still stands
for the 100th time, I am talking abt the collapses here, which i have documented again and again like in the quote below
so there is little point in your trying to furnish averages again and again when i am clearly looking beyond averages
yes, i think that someone like Rohit could be given a chance [and what you think on that is not my concern], along with someone like Badrinath .... thats not for their records [as it should be clear by now that i m looking at other things besides FC averages] but the talent and ability that they have displayed .... they can be played in place of 'whoever' is under-forming
not surprisingly, the original point made in March, which is quoted below, still stands
ret
International Debutant
some nice points there .... though I would be concerned over Dravid's wicket keeping form in testsI think there is going to be a case soon for dropping either Ganguly or Dravid from the side and accomodate Yuvraj Singh.
I am not convinced it is such a great idea to throw Rohit to the wolves as it were when the seniors are having problems reading Mendis and then castigate him if he fails. Having said that, if he was brought in for the next game in place of one of these two seniors I would not think it terribly amiss.
By the way, why not get Dravid to keep wickets and drop Karthik. That way you can have your new cake and keep your old pastries too
As far as bowling goes, Harbhajan needs to go. How long are we going to carry him in the side ?
I've got little to add beyond these two points:
1) 275 would've been a par score on that Melbourne pitch, assuming that the bowling was decent. India's batsmen were still poor (admittedly in the face of a good bowling performance), though.
2) India's plight could've been worse had Gilchrist and Clarke actually done their jobs competently in the field.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
I think only Laxman and Sachin look like their old selves at the moment. Definitely both Ganguly and Dravid look shadows of their former selves, esp. Dravid. Ganguly perhaps was never really in the "great" bracket but even he seems to have dipped now.
I really won't have a problem with dropping those two but who is going to replace them? Obvious answers are Rohit Sharma and Badrinath. But there is no guarantee that these two are going to be better than those two and Rohit's FC stats are hardly flattering. He seems to have a problem carrying on with his starts, a trait that has been visible even in his infant ODI career.... I guess we just have to live with this for this series and maybe look at changes for the Aussie tour coming up after this...
I really won't have a problem with dropping those two but who is going to replace them? Obvious answers are Rohit Sharma and Badrinath. But there is no guarantee that these two are going to be better than those two and Rohit's FC stats are hardly flattering. He seems to have a problem carrying on with his starts, a trait that has been visible even in his infant ODI career.... I guess we just have to live with this for this series and maybe look at changes for the Aussie tour coming up after this...
Burgey
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I'll make a third point and hope it doens't open up a can of worms.
Sydney shouldn't be left out even though they got at least one and arguably 2 bad decisions when batting on the last day - India still lost 9 wickets in the last 2 sessions to lose that game, which even though Dravid wasn't out and Ganguly may not have been, was a dire effort.
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
Indian batsmen may have good averages, but when you need them the most, they've failed. It is a frustrating recurrence, but it has happened. The question is asked again- why is such a celebrated, accomplished and experienced batting lineup prone to so many batting collapses, even on the flattest of pitches?
The problem is simple- lack of research. They make the same old mistakes, and the people that matter don't even point out what's going wrong out there. Opposition bowling teams have carefully thought out plans to counter the batsmen, and they always work. The batsmen, themselves, have failed to adapt.
The problem is simple- lack of research. They make the same old mistakes, and the people that matter don't even point out what's going wrong out there. Opposition bowling teams have carefully thought out plans to counter the batsmen, and they always work. The batsmen, themselves, have failed to adapt.