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Thread: The 10 players who will "define" cricket in the next decade

  1. #46
    International Captain Swervy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    But there are people who've averaged that and more over lengthy careers.
    for England?
    rave down, hit the ground


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  2. #47
    Cricketer Of The Year four_or_six's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    He's not really the sort of player to extricate "excitement", really. He's a bit of a Tendulkar (not at the same level, obviously) in that he'll play huge parts in the accumulation of countless big scores (and therefore, when the bowlers are good enough to play their part, victories), but he'll not be the sort to play that innings that innings that gets spotted by those who only scratch the surface in looking for the notable deeds of a batsman.
    I dunno... I mean, I can get excited about Cook even though he's more of an accumulator too.

    But then again, I'm not exactly the biggest Tendulkar fan. Fantastic player without a doubt, but give me Ponting to watch any day of the week.
    Last edited by four_or_six; 23-05-2007 at 03:13 PM. Reason: oops

  3. #48
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swervy View Post
    for England?
    Kenny Barrington, Len Hutton, Denis Compton, Edward Dexter (nearly).

    And it'll take quite something, really, to convince me that Kevin Pietersen is a better batsman than Geoff Boycott. Cook... maybe (and only maybe). But the general standard of bowling will simply have to improve in the next few years, otherwise it'll be impossible to class Pietersen anything other than a magnificent player in an era of weak bowling, just like *ahem* one or two others.

    Never before have two players of decent careers with batting-averages over 50 played together for England. If (and I think it very possible) Cook and Pietersen end-up being two such cases (even three - with Bell - isn't at all impossible) it simply cannot fail to be said that batting in England is no longer so difficult as it almost always used to be.
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  4. #49
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by four_or_six View Post
    I dunno... I mean, I can get excited about Cook even though he's more of an accumulator too.

    But then again, I'm not exactly the biggest Tendulkar fan. Fantastic player without a doubt, but give me Ponting to watch any day of the week.
    Cook is a player, though, that I can't help but fail to doubt will play one or two of those "Lara" or "Atherton" innings which see him stand in the face of everything thrown at him and achieve the near-impossible (whether that be a draw or a win, and both played many innings to achieve both such results). Tendulkar rarely did the sort, which is why the simplistic dismiss him as "not a match-winner".

    And TBH, I'd prefer watch a Tendulkar innings than most others', but that's all about aesthetics.


  5. #50
    International Captain Swervy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Kenny Barrington, Len Hutton, Denis Compton, Edward Dexter (nearly).
    120 tests??

    Times are different now as well. Due to current test cricketers hardly playing any first class cricket outside the test arena, you basically have to find your form whilst playing test cricket. Back then, esp on tour, you had a number of games to find your feet, and bat your way back into form. So I think we can expect KP to have a few slumps, but watching the guy bat there is no doubt he can ride those slumps out

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    And it'll take quite something, really, to convince me that Kevin Pietersen is a better batsman than Geoff Boycott. Cook... maybe (and only maybe). But the general standard of bowling will simply have to improve in the next few years, otherwise it'll be impossible to class Pietersen anything other than a magnificent player in an era of weak bowling, just like *ahem* one or two others.
    Pointless comparing Boycott and Pietersen, if there were ever to completely opposite types of player to have played for England, these two are they. I dare say though that KP may well end his test career (again injury permitting) with a superior record to Boycott, his talent is that great IMO

  6. #51
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swervy View Post
    120 tests??
    No real extra worth, IMO, in playing 120 Tests compared to, say, 76. Either way, it's a career of extreme longevity.
    Times are different now as well. Due to current test cricketers hardly playing any first class cricket outside the test arena, you basically have to find your form whilst playing test cricket. Back then, esp on tour, you had a number of games to find your feet, and bat your way back into form. So I think we can expect KP to have a few slumps, but watching the guy bat there is no doubt he can ride those slumps out
    I'm very much hopeful that we will sometime get back to what I'd call a proper tour schedule. In any case, Pietersen's hardly shown he has a problem in the First-Class game, he's scored runs wherever and whatever the occasion.
    Pointless comparing Boycott and Pietersen, if there were ever to completely opposite types of player to have played for England, these two are they. I dare say though that KP may well end his test career (again injury permitting) with a superior record to Boycott, his talent is that great IMO
    I don't doubt that for a second. But I do have to severely doubt whether Pietersen's record would be as good as Boycott's were he to face the bowling Boycott did. Boycott, right now, is easily the best English batsmen to debut since the 1950s - no-one else comes close. And it'd be a shame if someone did, and didn't get the chance to prove they were more than a weak-team bully. Pietersen I don't doubt could score runs against the attacks of the 1970s, 80s and 90s, but probably not in the quantity Boycott did. And yes, I'm very well aware that Boycott was no slouch when it came to cashing-in against the lesser attacks too.

  7. #52
    Cricketer Of The Year Manee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    And it'll take quite something, really, to convince me that Kevin Pietersen is a better batsman than Geoff Boycott.
    Definately, he needs to play out a whole career before he can become a legend. To me though, he is top of that and any list of potential redefiners of cricket.
    The speed at which a fielding team gets through the innings is overrated.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swervy View Post
    There hasnt been a more talented batsman that has played for England certainly in my lifetime....the fact that he is averaging 50 in his 2 year test career, and it is quite possible that we havent seen anywhere near all of his potential says a hell of a lot about his talent

    Injury permitting, there is no reason why he shouldnt be averaging over 50 (maybe well over 50 in fact) for a good 120 test career.
    Big deal. Many of the England batsman have an overinflated average of 45+

    Bell's average is a misleading joke, Collingwoods, Cook's etc. Strauss' was sky high for too long as well.

    The bowling is about as friendly as the pitches these days. Guys from the previous era such as Ming were better players yet averaged less.

    Cook averaging nearly 10 more than someone like The Cockroach is also a laughable reflection.

  9. #54
    International Captain Swervy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    No real extra worth, IMO, in playing 120 Tests compared to, say, 76. Either way, it's a career of extreme longevity.
    76 tests these days isnt extreme longevity, KP will probably reach that in say 2010ish, 5 years after his debut



    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I don't doubt that for a second. But I do have to severely doubt whether Pietersen's record would be as good as Boycott's were he to face the bowling Boycott did. Boycott, right now, is easily the best English batsmen to debut since the 1950s - no-one else comes close. And it'd be a shame if someone did, and didn't get the chance to prove they were more than a weak-team bully. Pietersen I don't doubt could score runs against the attacks of the 1970s, 80s and 90s, but probably not in the quantity Boycott did. And yes, I'm very well aware that Boycott was no slouch when it came to cashing-in against the lesser attacks too.
    You are doing it again, it is pure guess work from you.

    The implication is KP is a'weak team bully', which is unbeleivable considering how well he has batted against the best bowling attack in the world, and how well he has played against two of the best spinners the game has ever seen etc

    To say Boycott is EASILY the best batsman to debut for England since the 50s is a bit strong. A great batsman, but not the talent of Pietersen I am afraid, KP has the potential to do a lot more

  10. #55
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DireWindies View Post
    Big deal. Many of the England batsman have an overinflated average of 45+

    Bell's average is a misleading joke, Collingwoods, Cook's etc. Strauss' was sky high for too long as well.

    The bowling is about as friendly as the pitches these days. Guys from the previous era such as Ming were better players yet averaged less.

    Cook averaging nearly 10 more than someone like The Cockroach is also a laughable reflection.
    Agreeing with Richard, interesting new tactic, will enjoy seeing how that works out
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  11. #56
    Cricketer Of The Year four_or_six's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Cook is a player, though, that I can't help but fail to doubt will play one or two of those "Lara" or "Atherton" innings which see him stand in the face of everything thrown at him and achieve the near-impossible (whether that be a draw or a win, and both played many innings to achieve both such results). Tendulkar rarely did the sort, which is why the simplistic dismiss him as "not a match-winner".

    And TBH, I'd prefer watch a Tendulkar innings than most others', but that's all about aesthetics.
    Dunno why I prefer Ponting really, cause he's an irritating little ****. There's something about him though.

  12. #57
    International Captain Swervy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DireWindies View Post
    Big deal. Many of the England batsman have an overinflated average of 45+

    Bell's average is a misleading joke, Collingwoods, Cook's etc. Strauss' was sky high for too long as well.

    The bowling is about as friendly as the pitches these days. Guys from the previous era such as Ming were better players yet averaged less.

    Cook averaging nearly 10 more than someone like The Cockroach is also a laughable reflection.
    I think you have missed the point .

    I think it is plainly obvious that the likes of Collingwood, Strauss etc are probably playing at a level which is somewhere near where their talent level is, ie good test batsman, with the ability to hit a purple patch and score heavily.

    With pietersen, it looks to me we havent yet seen him really hit his stride, which is scary really considering how much he has acheived already.

    there is a hell of a chance that he will take many of the batting records for England, which is something a few people said about him even before he made his test debut

  13. #58
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swervy View Post
    76 tests these days isnt extreme longevity, KP will probably reach that in say 2010ish, 5 years after his debut
    But there was a time when it was. For different players, longevity will have different meaning. Saying "Pietersen averaged 50 over 120 Tests so he must be better than Compton who averaged 50 over just 70" is wrong. Compton would almost certainly have done likewise given the opportunity to play 120 Tests.
    You are doing it again, it is pure guess work from you.

    The implication is KP is a'weak team bully', which is unbeleivable considering how well he has batted against the best bowling attack in the world, and how well he has played against two of the best spinners the game has ever seen etc

    To say Boycott is EASILY the best batsman to debut for England since the 50s is a bit strong. A great batsman, but not the talent of Pietersen I am afraid, KP has the potential to do a lot more
    It depends how you look upon "talent". I've always had a rather broader brush for the word than most. Boycott's ability to play the right shot time after time doesn't just happen with hard work, you need quite some natural ability.

    It'd be very interesting indeed to see how the two of them would fare in the 1990s (a time neither played) when a weak bowling-attack was fairly rare. It'd also be interesting to see how Pietersen would have fared against some of the strong attacks Boycott faced. Pietersen has undoubtedly faced, and scored runs against, some excellent bowlers (be they Warne, Clark or Muralitharan) but he's also gorged himself on some nonsense (and some abysmal catching), to a far greater extent than Boycott ever had the chance to. If Boycott played right now, he might well average 60 or even more. Unless, of course, he were to be dropped for slow scoring again.

  14. #59
    State Vice-Captain Spitfires_Fan's Avatar
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    I agree with most of the names on the list, and definitely think Bravo should be on there. I also agree to an extent with Cook - I think he'll go a long way, but he's perhaps not as dashing as some of the other players on there, so may not get the recognition he deserves?

    I'm going to stick my hugely biased neck on the line and take a punt with Joe Denly. After his fantastic innings today (115* out of 199) against an attack spearheaded by Warne and Stuart Clark, the guy has huge potential. I could see him opening the England innings with Cook for many a year.

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    Richard is actually right about this one.

    Boycott was indeed a superior test batsman to Peitersen.

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