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Thread: Where is the justice?

  1. #1
    U19 Debutant chekmeout's Avatar
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    Icon8 Where is the justice?

    Sorry for the melodramatical title for the thread, but I just thought you guys might be interested in an article I wrote for my site.

    The original article can be found at http://caughtbehind.com/blog/where-is-the-justice

    As England amassed a mammoth total of 301 against Ireland yesterday, a young (well, by English standards!) opening batsman made his debut for England - Ed Joyce. Ironically enough, Joyce was born in Dublin, so this ODI at Belfast was a homecoming of sorts. However, he failed to do much in this ODI much to the disappointment of the 6000 strong Irish crowd.

    Joyce was born in Dublin, Ireland. He attended school in Ireland where he was first attracted to the sport of cricket. He played club cricket in Ireland. He completed his further studies at Trinity College in Dublin. He learnt the sport in Ireland, played and practised it in Ireland, he rose through the ranks in Ireland - a through and through product of the Irish cricket system.

    And by god, does he know how to play! Averaging close to 50 in the first-class game, ex-captain of Middlesex, Joyce is a class act. He was tremendously successful in all the Joyce playing for England AEngland ĎAí games, great for Ireland in the ICC Trophy, consistent county performer and he will no doubt, eventually be successful in international cricket - for England! A cricketer who had the calibre to take Ireland above the rung of associate nations, he had the talent to transform Ireland into a test-playing nation, a team capable of causing upsets at the 2007 WC. And after all isnít that fair since this Dubliner is a product of the Irish cricket system?

    The Irish Cricket Union finally succeed in producing a world-class player only for him to go on and represent England thereby rendering him ineligible to play for Ireland for a long time to come. And the worst part itís not a one-off thing. A promising young Irish left-hander, Eoin Morgan is unable for this match against England as he has been called up to cover for Joyce at Middlesex. So as soon as Ireland or Scotland produce a class player, England snap him up. Where is the justice?
    It seems like I'm not the only one - I found an article on Cricket Europe echoing the same sentiments.This article could be found at http://www.cricketeurope4.net/DATABA...7/002714.shtml
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    Soutie Langeveldt's Avatar
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    I think England should become the UK and Irish players should be classed as overseas players.. Not that it would ever happen though, but Ireland will never get over while the weird rules are still in place regarding nationality..
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    International Coach wpdavid's Avatar
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    For Joyce, the justice is that, if he is actually good enough, he will be able to prove it at the highest level. That's good for him, good for international cricket and, maybe in the eyes of a lot of Irish fans, good for them to see one of their own playing against the world's best. Fact is that at no point in the forseeable future will Ireland be playing test cricket, or even many ODI's, so they're not really losing out.

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    International Coach wpdavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langeveldt
    I think England should become the UK and Irish players should be classed as overseas players.. Not that it would ever happen though, but Ireland will never get over while the weird rules are still in place regarding nationality..
    British Isles would be better - aka the British Lions RU side. As you say, it ain't gong to happen though.


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    U19 Debutant chekmeout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wpdavid
    For Joyce, the justice is that, if he is actually good enough, he will be able to prove it at the highest level. That's good for him, good for international cricket and, maybe in the eyes of a lot of Irish fans, good for them to see one of their own playing against the world's best. Fact is that at no point in the forseeable future will Ireland be playing test cricket, or even many ODI's, so they're not really losing out.
    It's a vicious circle mate, with players like Joyce and Morgan in their ranks, Ireland will consistently be able to upset the best of teams. Surely, they aren't much worse than Zimbabwe and Bangladesh... I mean with Ed Joyce, it would have made a world of difference to the Irish cricket team. The reason they are not going to be playing test cricket in the foreseeable future is because they are losing out on their best players!

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    International Coach Xuhaib's Avatar
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    If you are producing only 1 quality player in 25 years then really you dont deserve test status.

  7. #7
    International Coach wpdavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chekmeout
    It's a vicious circle mate, with players like Joyce and Morgan in their ranks, Ireland will consistently be able to upset the best of teams. Surely, they aren't much worse than Zimbabwe and Bangladesh... I mean with Ed Joyce, it would have made a world of difference to the Irish cricket team. The reason they are not going to be playing test cricket in the foreseeable future is because they are losing out on their best players!
    Sure (last point, anyway), and I can see why some of you are not at all happy about the situation. Zim, of course, don't play test nowadays and I don't think Ireland are close to what Zim were when they had a proper test side. tbh I don't know how close Ireland are to Bang - I reckon that they're not, but I won't deny I'm guessing. But even if Joyce didn't jump ship, would they really be remotely in the frame for a test slot? Sorry, but Joyce isn't *that* good - judging by his performances for the England 'A' side, anyway.

    As I said earlier, I'd be in favour of a "British Isles" XI, if only to avoid the anomoly of Jones & others before him playing for "England".

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    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chekmeout
    It's a vicious circle mate, with players like Joyce and Morgan in their ranks, Ireland will consistently be able to upset the best of teams.
    You overrate their effect.

    2 players do not make a team.
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    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wpdavid
    But even if Joyce didn't jump ship, would they really be remotely in the frame for a test slot?
    Tikolo never made Kenya a Test side.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    There's two things that you need that are far, far more important than decent players as far as being able to maintain a test standard side is concerned:

    1. Infrastructure
    2. Support.

    They are very closely related of course, and once you can generate cashflow from having a high public profile that support will automatically bring, then you can look to develop your infrastructure. That itself then raises the profile of the game still higher, and so the cycle can become self-perpetuating. It's what the ECB have been trying to do for years - copy the Australian model of excellence.

    The first thing that strikes you about the profile of cricket in Ireland is that it's about as close to the ground as your average tramp on O'Connell Street after a night on the White Lightning. Cricket has NO profile at all in Ireland - it's played in a few centres where there has been a solid English influence over the last 200 hundred years, viz Belfast, Dublin, Waterford and Cork (ports) and perhaps a couple of others.

    Despite the fact that there have been some very fine players to come out of Ireland in the past, the game will never be more than a fringe activity played by at most a couple of thousand people in the entire country, and no matter how much anyone rants and raves about justice, you can't change that. No support = no infrastructure, full stop.

    Over the last few years, I have spent rather a lot of time in Ireland, and have taken an interest in the local cricket scene (regularly watching games at Clontarf, the venue for most of Ireland's internationals). Last year, as you know, the ICC Trophy was held in Ireland, and I spoke to one or two friends about it beforehand over the black stuff. The reaction was always similar: "Cricket? In Ireland? Jaysus....".

    Putting Clontarf into perspective, the cricket ground is a park, no more, no less, which the local cricket club (who do a sterling job - or should that be a euros job?) share with the local Gaelic Athletic Association club (Gaelic Football, Hurling, Camogie etc). It's got a grand club with an excellent bar and brilliant, dedicated, enthusiastic people. I believe that SIX members of the Joyce family have represented Ireland (eat it, Mohammeds), but Irish cricket always will be an amateur sport played by a very small slice of the population in a very small country.

    Please don't try to make it something that it is clearly not.
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    International Vice-Captain Jungle Jumbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chekmeout
    It's a vicious circle mate, with players like Joyce and Morgan in their ranks, Ireland will consistently be able to upset the best of teams. Surely, they aren't much worse than Zimbabwe and Bangladesh... I mean with Ed Joyce, it would have made a world of difference to the Irish cricket team. The reason they are not going to be playing test cricket in the foreseeable future is because they are losing out on their best players!
    Joyce aside, none of the Irish players would get near the (current) Bangladesh side bar on a shamrock-green Clontarf wicket.

  12. #12
    Hall of Fame Member superkingdave's Avatar
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    plus aren't some saffie/aussie imports in their side?

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    Quote Originally Posted by superkingdave
    plus aren't some saffie/aussie imports in their side?
    Yeah, there's Pietersen, Strauss, Geraint....

    Oh, you meant Ireland, didn't you?
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    International Vice-Captain open365's Avatar
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    This is justice, Jocye deserves to have a chance at the highest level, does anyone else in the Irish team?

    I mean, they're not even professional.

  15. #15
    World Traveller Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyeddie
    There's two things that you need that are far, far more important than decent players as far as being able to maintain a test standard side is concerned:

    1. Infrastructure
    2. Support.

    They are very closely related of course, and once you can generate cashflow from having a high public profile that support will automatically bring, then you can look to develop your infrastructure. That itself then raises the profile of the game still higher, and so the cycle can become self-perpetuating. It's what the ECB have been trying to do for years - copy the Australian model of excellence.

    The first thing that strikes you about the profile of cricket in Ireland is that it's about as close to the ground as your average tramp on O'Connell Street after a night on the White Lightning. Cricket has NO profile at all in Ireland - it's played in a few centres where there has been a solid English influence over the last 200 hundred years, viz Belfast, Dublin, Waterford and Cork (ports) and perhaps a couple of others.

    Despite the fact that there have been some very fine players to come out of Ireland in the past, the game will never be more than a fringe activity played by at most a couple of thousand people in the entire country, and no matter how much anyone rants and raves about justice, you can't change that. No support = no infrastructure, full stop.

    Over the last few years, I have spent rather a lot of time in Ireland, and have taken an interest in the local cricket scene (regularly watching games at Clontarf, the venue for most of Ireland's internationals). Last year, as you know, the ICC Trophy was held in Ireland, and I spoke to one or two friends about it beforehand over the black stuff. The reaction was always similar: "Cricket? In Ireland? Jaysus....".

    Putting Clontarf into perspective, the cricket ground is a park, no more, no less, which the local cricket club (who do a sterling job - or should that be a euros job?) share with the local Gaelic Athletic Association club (Gaelic Football, Hurling, Camogie etc). It's got a grand club with an excellent bar and brilliant, dedicated, enthusiastic people. I believe that SIX members of the Joyce family have represented Ireland (eat it, Mohammeds), but Irish cricket always will be an amateur sport played by a very small slice of the population in a very small country.

    Please don't try to make it something that it is clearly not.
    That is my nomination for the Bradman Award.

    I guess you are an expert on the subject considering you probably have spent enough time to get a Irish passport...

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