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Thread: Best ever medium pacer?

  1. #31
    International Vice-Captain open365's Avatar
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    I think it's stupid to term Glen McGrath as medium pace, medium pacers are people like Ian Harvey and Dwayne Bravo, not all time greats like McGrath. Though it doesn't seem like it on tv, 80mph is bloody quick to normal people.

  2. #32
    C_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy
    ?????????????

    We are talking about HAROLD Larwood aren't we?
    He is without a doubt one of the greatest fast bowlers ever, period.

    If you want to judge solely on average I would ask you to first comprehend the LBW rule at the time and how that blunted Larwood far more than any opponent.

    Larwood is a great and he is even more imprtant as he was the first real speed of light bowler. Apologies to Gregory, Hearne etc.
    Sorry but that doesnt add up.Voce was more successful than Larwood and i dont see Larwood as anything more than a Patrick Patterson/Rodney Hogg kinda bowler.
    To my knowledge, Spofforth was the first 'speed demon' in cricket of any real quality.

  3. #33
    International Vice-Captain Jungle Jumbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by open365
    I think it's stupid to term Glen McGrath as medium pace, medium pacers are people like Ian Harvey and Dwayne Bravo, not all time greats like McGrath. Though it doesn't seem like it on tv, 80mph is bloody quick to normal people.
    Agreed on all counts. Medium pace is where the keeper can stand up without too much trouble, someone who trundles in with a bit of swing and cuts it about. McGrath is far too quick to be classed as medium pace.

  4. #34
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    Sorry but that doesnt add up.Voce was more successful than Larwood and i dont see Larwood as anything more than a Patrick Patterson/Rodney Hogg kinda bowler.
    To my knowledge, Spofforth was the first 'speed demon' in cricket of any real quality.
    Oh my Lord (...reaches for blood pressure medicine..), even Voce's own mother would not have put him in Larwood's class. As for comparing him to Rodney Hogg!!!

    Larwood was by FAR the fastest before and until Tyson. Watch the film, read in depth and listen to people. It is without doubt the case. Only those who know nothing or think they know soooo much about cricket that they can show it by arguing and believing a controversial point would think different.

    I just cannot believe what Im reading here.

    EDIT: 45% of Larwoods test wickets were bowled. Why? because, due to the LBW law of the time, any ball pitching even a centimetre outside off-stump could be kicked away and could not be given out. As a very fast right arm bowler he was at a hugh disadvantage.

    Larwood was a physical freak who stood above the rest and is the model on which modern pace bowling is built.
    Last edited by Goughy; 28-05-2006 at 03:06 PM.
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  5. #35
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    Larwood was by FAR the fastest before and until Tyson. Watch the film, read in depth and listen to people. It is without doubt the case. Only those who know nothing or think they know soooo much about cricket that they can show it by arguing and believing a controversial point would think different.
    I dont know about that claim. Compton is on record saying that Nissar was atleast as fast as Larwood. There was also Cortwright and Spofforth.
    And yes, i've seen some clips of that infamous bodyline series. I'd rather face 4 larwoods - any day of the week- than just two Lillees or Marshall/Holding/Garner/Roberts/Imran/Waqar/Wasim etc etc.
    The success of bodyline was the cornerstone of Larwood's fame and the fundamental tenet of that cornerstone was the novelty of it.
    I see no reason why Larwood was anything more than a Rodney Hogg or Patrick Patterson- very quick but not of the highest quality either.

  6. #36
    International Captain Swervy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    I dont know about that claim. Compton is on record saying that Nissar was atleast as fast as Larwood. There was also Cortwright and Spofforth.
    By most of the accounts I have read, spofforth was actually only a medium pacer..Cortwright was apparently genuinely fast
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  7. #37
    International Debutant a massive zebra's Avatar
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    Spofforth was certainly not, by modern standards, fast. His first wicket in Test cricket was a stumping, and five of his 92 Test wickets were likewise. This would suggest that he may have bowled at the pace of Alec Bedser, for whom keepers sometimes stood at the wickets. Blackham and Murdoch stood at the stumps for the majority of Spofforth deliveries, though they retreated a few paces when Spofforth signalled that he intended to bowl a faster delivery.

    Spofforth boasted that"he was the fastest bowler that ever was", which Lord Hawke dismissed as "harmless delusion" because "he never achieved anything like the pace of JJ Kotze or Charles Kortright or even, for that matter, a number of other bowlers such as Thomas Richardson."

    At best Spofforth can probably claim to be the fastest bowler around in the 1870s and possibly the early 1880s. In modern terms Spofforth would rank as a fast-medium bowler at his very best; that is, his fastest ball might just about fall into that category.
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  8. #38
    Cricket Web Staff Member archie mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a massive zebra
    Spofforth was certainly not, by modern standards, fast. His first wicket in Test cricket was a stumping, and five of his 92 Test wickets were likewise. This would suggest that he may have bowled at the pace of Alec Bedser, for whom keepers sometimes stood at the wickets. Blackham and Murdoch stood at the stumps for the majority of Spofforth deliveries, though they retreated a few paces when Spofforth signalled that he intended to bowl a faster delivery.

    Spofforth boasted that"he was the fastest bowler that ever was", which Lord Hawke dismissed as "harmless delusion" because "he never achieved anything like the pace of JJ Kotze or Charles Kortright or even, for that matter, a number of other bowlers such as Thomas Richardson."

    At best Spofforth can probably claim to be the fastest bowler around in the 1870s and possibly the early 1880s. In modern terms Spofforth would rank as a fast-medium bowler at his very best; that is, his fastest ball might just about fall into that category.
    I think Spofforth started off as a true fast bowler after being inspired by 'tear em up' Tarrrant, but then discovered swerve (swing) and pace changes and only bowled the occasional faster ball after that. Richard Cashman wrote a great bio called 'Demon' Spofforth.

    As for Compton and his opinion on Larwood, he didnot (Compton) start his FCC until 1936 (I think) so would not have seen Larwood at his best, as he was beset by injuries after 1934 and even played as a batsman only for Notts in some matches.
    You know it makes sense.

  9. #39
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris.hinton
    h
    As in "H" from Steps?

    Granted he's better than Kabir Ali, but surely he's not the best medium pacer ever?
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  10. #40
    International Regular JBH001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie mac
    I think Spofforth started off as a true fast bowler after being inspired by 'tear em up' Tarrrant, but then discovered swerve (swing) and pace changes and only bowled the occasional faster ball after that. Richard Cashman wrote a great bio called 'Demon' Spofforth.

    As for Compton and his opinion on Larwood, he didnot (Compton) start his FCC until 1936 (I think) so would not have seen Larwood at his best, as he was beset by injuries after 1934 and even played as a batsman only for Notts in some matches.
    Interesting that, especially as Larwood was never the same bowler he had been after the bodyline series. So that is a difficult basis for comparison.

    (I guess a useful, functional definition of a medium pacer is one to whom a good keeper can consistently stand up at the stumps to)

    From what I have read, Tom Richardson was one of the fastest bowlers around in the 1890's though this is the first I have really heard of Kortright.

    But to say that Larwood is the foundation stone of the true fast bowler is stretching it a liitle bit. And claiming that the old LBW rule disadvantaged Larwood is not such a good point, as it would have applied equally to all bowlers and is therefore a little irrelevant.

  11. #41
    Cricket Web Staff Member archie mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBH001
    Interesting that, especially as Larwood was never the same bowler he had been after the bodyline series. So that is a difficult basis for comparison.

    (I guess a useful, functional definition of a medium pacer is one to whom a good keeper can consistently stand up at the stumps to).
    Fair enough definition, I will agree with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by JBH001
    From what I have read, Tom Richardson was one of the fastest bowlers around in the 1890's though this is the first I have really heard of Kortright..
    A very good book on Kortright is 'The Demon and The Lobster' by Anthony Meredith


    Quote Originally Posted by JBH001
    But to say that Larwood is the foundation stone of the true fast bowler is stretching it a liitle bit. And claiming that the old LBW rule disadvantaged Larwood is not such a good point, as it would have applied equally to all bowlers and is therefore a little irrelevant.
    Just to confirm that I did not post that I thought Larwood was the foundation stone of a true fast bowler, or anything about the LBW law. Although it would have been interesting to have seen how Larwood would have faired under the current LBW law

  12. #42
    International Regular JBH001's Avatar
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    Sorry Archie Mac.

    My comments re Larwood, fast bowling and the LBW law were more directed at Goughy.
    I merely thought his comments a bit of a stretch - as apart from anything else, Larwood record really isnt all that flash.
    Especially when isolated from the Bodyline series, where things were very much in his favour. Apart from, of course, the LBW rule and that would have been irrelevant anyway in the context of the Bodyline Series.

  13. #43
    Cricket Web Staff Member archie mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBH001
    Sorry Archie Mac.

    My comments re Larwood, fast bowling and the LBW law were more directed at Goughy.
    I merely thought his comments a bit of a stretch - as apart from anything else, Larwood record really isnt all that flash.
    Especially when isolated from the Bodyline series, where things were very much in his favour. Apart from, of course, the LBW rule and that would have been irrelevant anyway in the context of the Bodyline Series.
    Okay I will let it slide just this once

  14. #44
    International Regular JBH001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie mac
    As for Compton and his opinion on Larwood, he didnot (Compton) start his FCC until 1936 (I think) so would not have seen Larwood at his best, as he was beset by injuries after 1934 and even played as a batsman only for Notts in some matches.
    Even so, after a little trawl through cricinfo it seems Larwood took 82 wickets in FC matches in 1934, as well as 100 wickets in 1935 and 1936. Maybe Compton's remarks should be given greater credence?

  15. #45
    Cricket Web Staff Member archie mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBH001
    Even so, after a little trawl through cricinfo it seems Larwood took 82 wickets in FC matches in 1934, as well as 100 wickets in 1935 and 1936. Maybe Compton's remarks should be given greater credence?
    He had broken his foot during the Bodyline tour and most believed he was not the same fast bowler after this. Plus a row with the MCC seemed to hasten his retirement from the game, and as 1936 was his last season I would imagine he was not at his best. Plus I am not sure where C_C read those comments, I have never read anything about Compton saying this about Larwood.

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