Vettori: Young spinners should expore relaxed rulings

[vic_orthdox]

Why not just try to bowl the thing with as straight an arm as you can?
Really - as most people have commented - 7 or 12 degrees is virtually nothing. You can't possibly notice it at full speed with a naked-eye.

Oh, I try to. But I find with the method I've been practising with, even when I try to bowl with as straight an arm as possible, over 22 yards it still ends up being thrown (to a chorus of "no ball" from all my team-mates in the nets) to get it down the other end quick enough - or down there at all. It looks fine over short distances, its a case of getting enough on it to get down their quickly and well disguised.

And preferably not hitting the side net.

 

[SJS]

Why not just try to bowl the thing with as straight an arm as you can?
Really - as most people have commented - 7 or 12 degrees is virtually nothing. You can't possibly notice it at full speed with a naked-eye.

Its IMPOSSIBLE to bowl a doosra with a straight or a near straight arm. Secondly it is not feasible to control the angle of bend while bowling.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Its IMPOSSIBLE to bowl a doosra with a straight or a near straight arm. Secondly it is not feasible to control the angle of bend while bowling.

Exactly

In the end, the whole attempt to try and perfect the doosra is a bit of an "opportunity cost" thing. Do you try and spend hour on hour trying to create a ball that you have to completely remodel your action for and build from the ground up, or do you spend that time on your stock ball, making the ball that you bowl most often as potent and as challenging for the batsman as it can possibly be?

 

[benchmark00]

Exactly

In the end, the whole attempt to try and perfect the doosra is a bit of an "opportunity cost" thing. Do you try and spend hour on hour trying to create a ball that you have to completely remodel your action for and build from the ground up, or do you spend that time on your stock ball, making the ball that you bowl most often as potent and as challenging for the batsman as it can possibly be?

Knows his microeconomics, this bloke.

 

[Autobahn]

Underwood?
Did DK have a physical abnormality like Murali's double-jointed wrist and Chandra's 6 fingers?
I never knew that.

I should stress i was on about chandra and underwood being freakish spinners because they bowled basically medium-pace and at a very flat trajectory and that it would be a waste of time for young cricketers to try and bowl like them because of the "one-off" nature of their bowling.

And anyway i thought Chandra's thing was his polio-withered right arm in a whippy motion?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Oh, I try to. But I find with the method I've been practising with, even when I try to bowl with as straight an arm as possible, over 22 yards it still ends up being thrown (to a chorus of "no ball" from all my team-mates in the nets) to get it down the other end quick enough - or down there at all. It looks fine over short distances, its a case of getting enough on it to get down their quickly and well disguised.

And preferably not hitting the side net.

Great White Hope of Australian Left-Arm Spin Admits To Chucking

A nation mourns

No comment yet from the Prime Minster's office

 

[Richard]

I didn't say you contradicted yourself, I said the true points you raised did. Saying the laws are unfair, but policable and then saying a line must be drawn on the ability of those to protest. I argue that IF this situation is unequitable, then those feeling cheated should be able to voice their view. In some cases, people have lost positions or been ordered to apologise to not lose their position just because they have a gripe with a scenario. Well if that scenario is unfair, WHY can't they protest? This is contradictory and unfair. They'd rather no one protest what we all know is flawed, and do not wish to have the pressure of fixing it with others complaining.

I didn't say no-one should protest - no-one can stop commentators saying what they want. But players who are, in essence, committing themselves to ICC by playing international cricket are entering an arena. If you're just allowed to slag-off anyone you want in that arena, the authority are treading on very dangerous ground indeed.
As I say - if you're allowed to say one thing you're allowed to say anything, and when people like Shoaib and Murali have been exhaustively tested and cleared time-and-again, I see it as perfectly fair that no-one should be allowed to question them.

 

[Richard]

Oh, I try to. But I find with the method I've been practising with, even when I try to bowl with as straight an arm as possible, over 22 yards it still ends up being thrown (to a chorus of "no ball" from all my team-mates in the nets) to get it down the other end quick enough - or down there at all. It looks fine over short distances, its a case of getting enough on it to get down their quickly and well disguised.

And preferably not hitting the side net.

Well... then I regret to say it but you clearly don't possess the skill - yet at any rate - to bowl the thing.
Doesn't mean, of course, that you need to give-up trying. There's no biomechanical reason why you shouldn't be able to bowl the ball with a straight arm.
Maybe try putting your arm in a brace that holds your elbow, and repeatedly bowling it?

 

[Richard]

Its IMPOSSIBLE to bowl a doosra with a straight or a near straight arm. Secondly it is not feasible to control the angle of bend while bowling.

How can it be impossible? That doesn't make sense. Nothing can force the elbow to bend if you're keeping it straight.
Any more, of course, than it's impossible to bowl anything with a straight arm.
It's incredibly easy to control the angle of bend while bowling - just don't allow your elbow to flex by putting something in place to stop it.

 

[Richard]

I should stress i was on about chandra and underwood being freakish spinners because they bowled basically medium-pace and at a very flat trajectory and that it would be a waste of time for young cricketers to try and bowl like them because of the "one-off" nature of their bowling.

Well - Chandra probably wouldn't have been able to bowl as quick as he did while spinning it without his arm being freakish in nature. Same way Murali wouldn't have been but for his wrist being freakish in nature.
But... why was it that Underwood could bowl as quickly as he did?
Indeed - do we actually know how quick Underwood was? No.

And anyway i thought Chandra's thing was his polio-withered right arm in a whippy motion?

Had that too but he also had 6 fingers IIRR (unless that was Prasanna - one of the 4 certainly did and it wasn't Venkat and I'm almost positive it wasn't Bedi).

 

[luckyeddie]

How can it be impossible? That doesn't make sense. Nothing can force the elbow to bend if you're keeping it straight.
Any more, of course, than it's impossible to bowl anything with a straight arm.
It's incredibly easy to control the angle of bend while bowling - just don't allow your elbow to flex by putting something in place to stop it.

I'd be inclined to suggest that it's pretty well impossible to bowl an effective doosra without flexing the elbow to an extent that it constitutes a nigh-on blatant throw in old money.

 

[Richard]

Great White Hope of Australian Left-Arm Spin Admits To Chucking

A nation mourns

No comment yet from the Prime Minster's office

STOP PRESS: Every bowler in the history of the game is found to have been chucking! Because the rules as they were in their day were based on false ideals.

 

[Richard]

I'd be inclined to suggest that it's pretty well impossible to bowl an effective doosra without flexing the elbow to an extent that it constitutes a nigh-on blatant throw in old money.

Again - how is that possible?
From memory few if any ever questioned the legality of Saqlain's action - just because Harbhajan and most others (Malik, etc.) aren't as good as him doesn't mean it's impossible.
There's no way an action on the fingers and wrist can force the elbow to bend excessively.

 

[cricketboy29]

Have you tried bowling a doosra, Richard?, I have, and I can veritably tell you that its well-nigh impossible to get the ball to spin if you do it with a straight arm. Even if you chuck it, the batsman down the other end is going to know, since its such a blatant deviation from your regular action.

 

[Richard]

I can barely bowl a decent Off-Break - never mind a Doosra.
Very few have ever come close to perfecting it.
I'm not even sure of the wrist\finger mechanism.

 

[cricketboy29]

I think there was a thread on how to bowl a doosra, somewhere around here, or you could just ask jack

 

[Richard]

IAH it doesn't really worry me - but I do fail to see how a movement of the wrist\fingers can force an unavoidable movement of the elbow.

 

[cricketboy29]

Well...when you try and impart as much spin on the ball as you can (for the doosra, I mean), your elbow just bends automatically in a bid to do that and try and get it down the other end at the same speed as your regular offspinner.

 

[Richard]

I ask... again... why does it have to be that way?
Why can practice not eliminate this trait?
A good idea - as I've said - might be to practise the delivery while forcing your elbow to remain straight.
As far as I can see, too, the Doosra is not a ball that's spun especially viciously. It doesn't turn - just like a normal Off-Break - on non-turning pitches.

 

[Sir Redman]

IAH it doesn't really worry me - but I do fail to see how a movement of the wrist\fingers can force an unavoidable movement of the elbow.

Because in order to achieve the required movement of the wrist/fingers you HAVE to bend your elbow as this forces your wrist to face a slightly different direction, allowing the wrist and fingers to rotate at the extreme angle required to bowl a doosra.

You can try it if you want - just grab a ball and try rolling your fingers over the ball in a doosra action. You'll find that with a straight arm its practically impossible to do since you just won't be able to get your wrist to rotate at the angle required. If you tried to force your elbow to stay straight (say by wearing a brace) its quite possible that you'd end up dislocating your elbow or some such thing. If you bend your elbow though, you'll find that you can get extra flexion in your wrist, allowing you to rotate your fingers over the ball at the required angle to bowl a doosra.