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Thread: Lillie VS Hadlee

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JASON
    Well picked !!

    Not Lilley either . (D*ck Lilley -England 1896-1909)
    Do you remember Lillee ct Willy bowled Dilly

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by cric_manic
    were talking best not quickest,jeff may have been quick but is nowere as good as hadlee
    Talking period 74-76, Thommo may have been best ever.

    Anyway, as Ive said to Toocoolx, you cant take a snapshot of a career.

    When people talk of Lillee's weaknesses, it is true that he was not as good as bowling to tailenders as some. However, in some repects, the fact that most of his wickets were the better opposition players further solidifies his greatness and value to any team.

    However the point remains, both great bowlers. Vast majority name Lillee their no.1 but I wont argue with those who choose Hadlee. Or Marshall. Or MacGrath. Or ...

  3. #33
    Cricketer Of The Year JASON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scallywag
    Do you remember Lillee ct Willy bowled Dilly
    Yes of course. When I was working in the United Kingdom few years ago, on Radio 5 they replayed the funniest bit of commentary in the history of the game and there was Brian Johnstone reading this and rolling in laughter !!

    I think Agnew was also making faces at him (not known to listensers) and that was the most hilarious pieces of commentary if ever you heard one !!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by JASON
    Yes of course. When I was working in the United Kingdom few years ago, on Radio 5 they replayed the funniest bit of commentary in the history of the game and there was Brian Johnstone reading this and rolling in laughter !!

    I think Agnew was also making faces at him (not known to listensers) and that was the most hilarious pieces of commentary if ever you heard one !!
    I do remember (not the comentator though) when Holding was bowling to Willy and the comentator said "The bowler is Holding, the batsmans Willy" it was priceless.


  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by social

    However the point remains, both great bowlers. Vast majority name Lillee their no.1 but I wont argue with those who choose Hadlee. Or Marshall. Or MacGrath. Or ...
    Hoggy!!!


  6. #36
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scallywag
    Do you remember Lillee ct Willy bowled Dilly
    I can beat that.

    The bowler's Holding the batsman's Willey.

    Edit: (Beaten to it, but I believe it was John Arlott!)
    Last edited by marc71178; 15-01-2005 at 02:13 AM.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JASON
    Yes of course. When I was working in the United Kingdom few years ago, on Radio 5 they replayed the funniest bit of commentary in the history of the game and there was Brian Johnstone reading this and rolling in laughter !!

    It wasn't that incident though.

    It was the last WI tour when Viv and Beefy were there, and Botham hit his own wicket when swivelling after a pull.

    Johnston said something along the lines of "Botham tried hard, but he just couldn't get his leg over"

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178
    I can beat that.

    The bowler's Holding the batsman's Willey.

    Edit: (Beaten to it, but I believe it was John Arlott!)
    first time i've heard that and it would take some beating!

  9. #39
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    To compare two of the greatest pace bowlers of all time is fine.

    To debate who was better is understandable since their careeres did overlap to an extent.

    But to decide one is better than the other on the basis of a difference in bowling average of 22.3 versus 23.9 is to show how understanding of the game has been totally replaced in many cases by a maddening and utterly mindless devotion to figures.


    So here is a list of pace bowlers better than both of these worthies by the same criteria.

    McGrath, Ambrose, Marshall, Pollock, Donald, Trueman, Garner, Tyson, davidson, Higgs, Adcock. And these are only those who played after the second world war.

    By the way, it also proves that Bruce taylor of NewZealand was a far better bowler than Larwood and so are at least a hundred others !!

  10. #40
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    Well the initial question was who is the better player.
    As a player, all cricketing skills are taken into consideration and as such, Hadlee wins easily. Simply because he was a MUCH better batsman.
    They are comparable bowlers(though i feel Lillee is a bit overrated) and i dont know much about their fielding prowess but batting is simply no comparison.


    PS: The reason i feel Lillee is a bit overrated is because he has zero success in the subcontinent ( admittedly he didnt play much there but still....pretty poor record there which indicates that lillee might not be the force he is thought to be if the pitches arnt conductive to short of a length bowling) and most of his career success was based against England....he didnt do too well either against the top batting lineup he faced - the west indians.

  11. #41
    Cricketer Of The Year JASON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178
    It wasn't that incident though.

    It was the last WI tour when Viv and Beefy were there, and Botham hit his own wicket when swivelling after a pull.

    Johnston said something along the lines of "Botham tried hard, but he just couldn't get his leg over"
    You are absolutely right Marc. I was confusing the two or three commentary pieces I had heard in the UK. But this one where Johnstone cries from laughing with his voice husky is absolutely hilarious, even if a person who didn'y follow the sport were to hear it !!

  12. #42
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    PS: The reason i feel Lillee is a bit overrated is because he has zero success in the subcontinent ( admittedly he didnt play much there but still....pretty poor record there which indicates that lillee might not be the force he is thought to be if the pitches arnt conductive to short of a length bowling) and most of his career success was based against England....he didnt do too well either against the top batting lineup he faced - the west indians.[/QUOTE]

    When Lillee played on the sub-continent, the wickets were doctored completely to nullify the Australian pace bowlers. Greg Chappell, on scoring 230-odd on that tour declared the wicket to be the worst that he has ever played on.

    To gain a true impression of how he fared vs the West Indians, you must take into account World Series Cricket. WI had all their great players at or near their peak and his record was sensational. That is why Viv Richards rates him the best. And Don Bradman. And etc., etc., etc.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Maestro
    Botham hated Hadlee man

    As for your other point Im not sure how that is relevant to the debate? Hadlee held Lillee is high regard, but he finished up a better bowler, let alone cricketer

    He actually had Hogg as his idol before Lillie anyway
    I just mentioned that it was interesting that Lillee was hadlee's hero. Thats all

  14. #44
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    When Lillee played on the sub-continent, the wickets were doctored completely to nullify the Australian pace bowlers. Greg Chappell, on scoring 230-odd on that tour declared the wicket to be the worst that he has ever played on.
    they were also adjusted to nullify the WI four prong but bowlers such as Marshall were not negated- true they wernt rampaging but they wernt almost completely neutered like Lillee.

    To gain a true impression of how he fared vs the West Indians, you must take into account World Series Cricket. WI had all their great players at or near their peak and his record was sensational. That is why Viv Richards rates him the best. And Don Bradman. And etc., etc., etc.
    Lillee did well at the world series cricket but it was not of the same intensity. infact, Imran Khan mentions in his book that WSC cricket was not as intense as test cricket because it didnt carry the honour(and the pressure associated with it) to play for your country.

    As far as World Series cricket goes, Lillee's record against WI was certainly uneven.
    This is his record against WI in the supertests:

    Matches:4
    Wickets:19
    Average:23.63
    B-B:7-23
    5-fer:1
    10-fer:0
    Strike/Rate:35.52

    certainly very good but not that jaw dropping as people claim.
    Also, in the packer series, Lillee had most wickets (but he played more matches than most bowlers too) but his average was pretty far down the tree....

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    they were also adjusted to nullify the WI four prong but bowlers such as Marshall were not negated- true they wernt rampaging but they wernt almost completely neutered like Lillee.



    Lillee did well at the world series cricket but it was not of the same intensity. infact, Imran Khan mentions in his book that WSC cricket was not as intense as test cricket because it didnt carry the honour(and the pressure associated with it) to play for your country.

    As far as World Series cricket goes, Lillee's record against WI was certainly uneven.
    This is his record against WI in the supertests:

    Matches:4
    Wickets:19
    Average:23.63
    B-B:7-23
    5-fer:1
    10-fer:0
    Strike/Rate:35.52

    certainly very good but not that jaw dropping as people claim.
    Also, in the packer series, Lillee had most wickets (but he played more matches than most bowlers too) but his average was pretty far down the tree....
    again you are just making judgments based on a few stats.

    If you had watched the guy bowl you may have a bit more understanding of why he is considered an all time great.

    As for the WSC stuff, well I have read accounts that the play was played at a pretty intense level.Imran may have slackened off,but I think a number of players were trying their hardest to win..I seem to remember that it was only the winners who got any prize money,that was the incentive to win.
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