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Lillie VS Hadlee

Anil

International Coach
both all-time greats....i have seen a lot of hadlee and he was just incredible, but haven't seen lillee play although from what i've heard he was a fantastic bowler as well...
 

James

Cricket Web Owner
and:

In the History of Test Cricket

Sir Richard had the following ratings:

Ranked by Wisden in the top 10 greatest cricketers of the 20th century

Ranked 3rd highest bowler of all time behind S.F. Barnes and Bill O'Reilly

Ranked 4th greatest player (6.47) behing Sir Donald Bradman (8.63), Sir Garfield Sobers (7.00) and Imran Khan (6.70) by a statistical equation

Ranked 11th bowler for the most wickets per test (5.01)

Rated the world's no. 1 bowler in 1984, 1987, 1990
 

GermanShepherd

School Boy/Girl Captain
Dennis Lillee was a great bowler but I don't think
he was as good a fast bowler as Malcolm Marshall (IMO the greatest bowler of all time).
 

social

Hall of Fame Member
James said:
so according to that he eats Lillee for breakfast. ;)
You can manipulate stats for any purpose.

Both were great bowlers and it probably be left at that.

However, does either compare with Jeff Thomson of 74-76, i.e. pre-shoulder injury.

A recent study concluded that the ball he bowled in the speed trial of the '70s that was clocked at 160 ks was actually OVER 170 ks due to a discrepancy between the means by which a bowlers' pace is estimated today vs back then.

Today, the bowlers speed is the average of 3 readings taken when the ball is less than 1 ft from release. Thommo's speed was the average speed over the full 22 yards.

In that period he was certainly the quickest and most lethal bowler in living memory.
 

The Maestro

School Boy/Girl Captain
zinzan12 said:
I personally think they are hard to separate as bowlers, and also interesting that Lillee was Hadlee's hero .

Although Hadlee had a slightly better record, many great past players rate Lillee as the best ever. Botham included.

Botham hated Hadlee man

As for your other point Im not sure how that is relevant to the debate? Hadlee held Lillee is high regard, but he finished up a better bowler, let alone cricketer

He actually had Hogg as his idol before Lillie anyway
 

JASON

Cricketer Of The Year
SJS said:
Lillie VS Hadlee

Which of these two stacks up as the better player in your opinion?

I dont know ? :sleep:

PS. Who is Lillie ? :-O
:laugh: :laugh: Well picked !! :)

Not Lilley either . (D*ck Lilley -England 1896-1909)
 
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social

Hall of Fame Member
cric_manic said:
were talking best not quickest,jeff may have been quick but is nowere as good as hadlee
Talking period 74-76, Thommo may have been best ever.

Anyway, as Ive said to Toocoolx, you cant take a snapshot of a career.

When people talk of Lillee's weaknesses, it is true that he was not as good as bowling to tailenders as some. However, in some repects, the fact that most of his wickets were the better opposition players further solidifies his greatness and value to any team.

However the point remains, both great bowlers. Vast majority name Lillee their no.1 but I wont argue with those who choose Hadlee. Or Marshall. Or MacGrath. Or ...
 

JASON

Cricketer Of The Year
Scallywag said:
Do you remember Lillee ct Willy bowled Dilly
Yes of course. When I was working in the United Kingdom few years ago, on Radio 5 they replayed the funniest bit of commentary in the history of the game and there was Brian Johnstone reading this and rolling in laughter !! :laugh: :laugh:

I think Agnew was also making faces at him (not known to listensers) and that was the most hilarious pieces of commentary if ever you heard one !! :D
 

Scallywag

Banned
JASON said:
Yes of course. When I was working in the United Kingdom few years ago, on Radio 5 they replayed the funniest bit of commentary in the history of the game and there was Brian Johnstone reading this and rolling in laughter !! :laugh: :laugh:

I think Agnew was also making faces at him (not known to listensers) and that was the most hilarious pieces of commentary if ever you heard one !! :D
I do remember (not the comentator though) when Holding was bowling to Willy and the comentator said "The bowler is Holding, the batsmans Willy" it was priceless.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Scallywag said:
Do you remember Lillee ct Willy bowled Dilly
I can beat that.

The bowler's Holding the batsman's Willey.

Edit: (Beaten to it, but I believe it was John Arlott!)
 
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marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
JASON said:
Yes of course. When I was working in the United Kingdom few years ago, on Radio 5 they replayed the funniest bit of commentary in the history of the game and there was Brian Johnstone reading this and rolling in laughter !! :laugh: :laugh:

It wasn't that incident though.

It was the last WI tour when Viv and Beefy were there, and Botham hit his own wicket when swivelling after a pull.

Johnston said something along the lines of "Botham tried hard, but he just couldn't get his leg over"
 

bryce

International Regular
marc71178 said:
I can beat that.

The bowler's Holding the batsman's Willey.

Edit: (Beaten to it, but I believe it was John Arlott!)
first time i've heard that and it would take some beating!
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
To compare two of the greatest pace bowlers of all time is fine.

To debate who was better is understandable since their careeres did overlap to an extent.

But to decide one is better than the other on the basis of a difference in bowling average of 22.3 versus 23.9 is to show how understanding of the game has been totally replaced in many cases by a maddening and utterly mindless devotion to figures.


So here is a list of pace bowlers better than both of these worthies by the same criteria.

McGrath, Ambrose, Marshall, Pollock, Donald, Trueman, Garner, Tyson, davidson, Higgs, Adcock. And these are only those who played after the second world war.

By the way, it also proves that Bruce taylor of NewZealand was a far better bowler than Larwood and so are at least a hundred others !!
 

C_C

International Captain
Well the initial question was who is the better player.
As a player, all cricketing skills are taken into consideration and as such, Hadlee wins easily. Simply because he was a MUCH better batsman.
They are comparable bowlers(though i feel Lillee is a bit overrated) and i dont know much about their fielding prowess but batting is simply no comparison.


PS: The reason i feel Lillee is a bit overrated is because he has zero success in the subcontinent ( admittedly he didnt play much there but still....pretty poor record there which indicates that lillee might not be the force he is thought to be if the pitches arnt conductive to short of a length bowling) and most of his career success was based against England....he didnt do too well either against the top batting lineup he faced - the west indians.
 

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