Eng vs. SA head to head?

[tooextracool]

Perhaps Strauss over Gibbs on current form and Jones over Boucher.

can you please tell me what this 'current' form is about?
gibbs averages 60+ this year, about 15 runs more than strauss. unless of course we're basing gibbs poor form on his last test, which is really the only test hes failed in this entire year.

 

[tooextracool]

SA basically have 2 good bowlers and the rest are rubbish - Hoggard especially,Anderson/Jones with any sort of form are better. Over the past year Flintoff is a better batsman and bowler than Kallis - Kallis hardly seems to bowl anyway, but I'd rate Flintoff's bowling to be roughly equal to Ntini in these circumstances. Jones is a better batsman than Boucher certainly, Boucher is probably a better keeper but not enough to make him a better player overall.

what a ridiculous post.
how anyone could rate anderson ahead of hall in any department is quite beyond me, let alone how rating jones who has barely even proved himself at the international level over boucher.
and lets not even talk about how you came up with the idea that flintoff is a better batsman than kallis....

 

[DocHead]

This one'll slide, but one really wonders what the point of an Official Discussion thread is...

I didn't want to disturb the rivetting conversation about Damien Martin, Harbhajan Singh's bowling action & Mark Waugh's Hit wicket from years ago.

Sorry, oversight on my part, I forgot about that thread.

 

[marc71178]

can you please tell me what this 'current' form is about?
gibbs averages 60+ this year, about 15 runs more than strauss. unless of course we're basing gibbs poor form on his last test, which is really the only test hes failed in this entire year.

I imagine it's confusing the ODI form with Test form.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Kallis has a better average over this year than Flintoff with the bat, this is mostly because Kallis has more not-outs tho. Also apart from the Lara 400 Test Flintoff has been playing on result pitches where his runs were more important and harder to get - including the 3 earlier Tests in that series which were somewhat bowler friendly. Kallis has been playing on a fair few draw pitches in that time - far more than Flintoff. Then of course Flintoff bats with the tail and scores far more quickly so again that makes his runs more valuable.

Just to restate for zebra - Giles IS a better bowler than Boje, what decent bowlers do SA have beyond Ntini & Pollock? Flintoff averages mid-20s with the ball this year and that is certainly comparable with Ntini - he's probably about the same speed but gets better bounce and doesn't bowl so many loose deliveries.

 

[Richard]

Well, I don't see how Boucher can be there if he's not in the SA side...

Because no-one in their right mind could possibly want Tselokile to play Tests again in the near future!

 

[Richard]

Perhaps Strauss over Gibbs on current form and Jones over Boucher.

While I think Jones is a better player than Boucher he's had 8 Tests - we can't really say for certain quite yet.

 

[Richard]

Look at recent form.

Look at the only fair way - compare them on turning pitches - both are useless when the pitch is not turning sufficiently.
I'd say they are equal for-all-intents-and-purposes - very similar bowlers IMO.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Playing the old "composite 11" trick I think I'd have more Englishmen than Saffies in my team, but some calls like Gibbs/Strauss & Giles/Boje are so tight it may just be my bias that makes it so.

Anyway, for what it's worth:

Smith, Strauss, Kallis, Vaughan, Thorpe, Flintoff, G. Jones, Pollock, Giles, Harmison, Ntini.

If Cullinan were to make himself available I may include him ahead of Strauss & ask Vaughan to open.

I think it'll be a huge achievement if we can pull it off. I think I'm right in saying only Oz has won a test series down there since SA were readmitted to the test fold. What I do hope is that our cause isn't helped too much by "curious" SA selections a la Indian tour.

 

[Buddhmaster]

Gibbs/Strauss wouldn't a hard decision, Gibbs by a mile. Giles and Boje isn't hard either, what has Boje done recently, Giles is in way better form, although neither have done that much. And tho he's getting better and better, Flintoff is nowhere near as good a batsman as Kallis.

 

[Richard]

I think it'll be a huge achievement if we can pull it off. I think I'm right in saying only Oz has won a test series down there since SA were readmitted to the test fold. What I do hope is that our cause isn't helped too much by "curious" SA selections a la Indian tour.

You are correct.
Certainly I hope Tseolokile, Peterson and Ontong don't play against England.
Do my ideal line-ups in the proper thread.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Gibbs/Strauss wouldn't a hard decision, Gibbs by a mile. Giles and Boje isn't hard either, what has Boje done recently, Giles is in way better form, although neither have done that much. And tho he's getting better and better, Flintoff is nowhere near as good a batsman as Kallis.

I agree about Kallis, but I'd have both him & Fred in my 11 anyway.

Strauss has a touch of old-school elegance about him. I haven't looked it up, but I would bet his average after 7 tests is far higher than Gibbs's was. I also think the whole India debacle may have an affect on Gibbs, strikes me as a mood player.

I also think Giles/Boje is a fairly tight call. True, Giles has performed far better recently, but then the pitches he was bowling on this summer were far more receptive to spin than is the norm for a British summer. I wonder how he'll get on on a less responsive track. Boje's batting is also slightly better too, although with the top 8 the composite team has that shouldn't really be a consideration!

 

[Richard]

Strauss has a touch of old-school elegance about him. I haven't looked it up, but I would bet his average after 7 tests is far higher than Gibbs's was.

Certainly is!

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Kallis has a better average over this year than Flintoff with the bat, this is mostly because Kallis has more not-outs tho. Also apart from the Lara 400 Test Flintoff has been playing on result pitches where his runs were more important and harder to get - including the 3 earlier Tests in that series which were somewhat bowler friendly. Kallis has been playing on a fair few draw pitches in that time - far more than Flintoff. Then of course Flintoff bats with the tail and scores far more quickly so again that makes his runs more valuable.

In the last year to today...

Kallis has scored 1434 runs in 20 innings with 5 not outs. That's an average of 95.60. Without the not outs, he'd be averaging 71.70.

Flintoff has scored 1146 runs in 25 innings at 49.82. He has 2 not outs.

That shows that even without the not outs, Kallis is still averaging significantly higher than Flintoff is with his not outs.

The pitches...

In matches where Kallis has scored 158 and 177 there have been results. Kallis has averaged 73.90 in matches that South Africa has either won or lost. In drawn matches the average is obviously a lot higher.

Flintoff averages 55.22 in matches where there is a result (all wins of course).

Kallis is a superior batsman to Flintoff. Flintoff is improving rapidly, but Kallis is still a class above. I'd still back Kallis to bat for my life ahead of Flintoff. I'd toss Flintoff the ball though.

 

[twctopcat]

can you please tell me what this 'current' form is about?
gibbs averages 60+ this year, about 15 runs more than strauss. unless of course we're basing gibbs poor form on his last test, which is really the only test hes failed in this entire year.

I was just referring to the whole india problem and that Gibbs hasn't had much test match action this year, not since about march anyway.

 

[Scaly piscine]

In the last year to today...

Kallis has scored 1434 runs in 20 innings with 5 not outs. That's an average of 95.60. Without the not outs, he'd be averaging 71.70.

Flintoff has scored 1146 runs in 25 innings at 49.82. He has 2 not outs.

That shows that even without the not outs, Kallis is still averaging significantly higher than Flintoff is with his not outs.

The pitches...

In matches where Kallis has scored 158 and 177 there have been results. Kallis has averaged 73.90 in matches that South Africa has either won or lost. In drawn matches the average is obviously a lot higher.

Flintoff averages 55.22 in matches where there is a result (all wins of course).

Kallis is a superior batsman to Flintoff. Flintoff is improving rapidly, but Kallis is still a class above. I'd still back Kallis to bat for my life ahead of Flintoff. I'd toss Flintoff the ball though.

All very nice but I clearly stated this year in my last post, that does not include December last year when the 158 & 177 were scored.

 

[Richard]

What a highly convenient threshold - of course, the fact that it was a month from being inside this year - no significant time, in other words - means nothing as far as this one is concerned.

 

[Richard]

I was just referring to the whole india problem and that Gibbs hasn't had much test match action this year, not since about march anyway.

Well, apart from his Test in Sri Lanka in August.

 

[twctopcat]

Well, apart from his Test in Sri Lanka in August.

He scored well there didn't he?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

All very nice but I clearly stated this year in my last post, that does not include December last year when the 158 & 177 were scored.

Even without those two innings, Kallis still averages 61.05 without his not outs.