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Thread: Cricketweb poster with the best understanding of the game

  1. #211
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox
    modesty is a virtue
    And in much greater measure it's a bad thing.
    Overt modesty often, nay always, leads to flawed self-deprication.
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  2. #212
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Pickup
    Please, leave it in the past. You're hurting me inside
    Aww, go on, explain to us post-2002-ers.

  3. #213
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Aww, go on, explain to us post-2002-ers.
    Come on, Neil. Let everyone else in on your obsession with Fulton. You wanted to have his babies, didn't you?
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  4. #214
    C_C
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    Richard- if you are gonna take a 'he says so because he is subcontinental' veiw akin to neo-racists, i would ask you to do one thing- go fack yourself.

    FYI, i have spent more time in England than in India. And FYI, that is not a 'subcontinental only' argument in matters related to sports.
    It is also a very prevalent viewpoint in north america, something that is backed up with detailed social analysis.

    Cricket was not modernised till the post war era and the past greats mostly were nothing but fuddy duddy players capitalising on substandard quality. Ofcourse,a few of them were decent enough but still got over-accentuated by the massive quality differential through the field.

    I wouldnt give Jack Hobbs 10 overs against Lillee and Thommo. And considering that he as an opener routinely faced dibbly dobbly medium pacers or slow bowler alone, i wouldnt bet a dollar on his ability or expertise to play brutal pace bowling.

    If you think the likes of Bradman or Barnes could keep the same average in the new era, you obviously are deluding yourself.
    This is not just a cricket-only viewpoint, this is a viewpoint about pre and post modernisation in ANY game.Tillden wouldnt stand a snowball's chance in hell against Sampras or MacEnroe. Not with wooden rackets,graphite rackets or rackets of any material.
    Bradman would struggle to average over 65-70 in post 60s, Barnes would struggle to average 21-22 in test cricket, Rocket Richard would get mowed down by the likes of Al McInness, etc. etc.

    This is a sociologically accepted view in sports. Look at how the aussies whined their tits off when faced with bodyline...and then look in the post 60s era- bodyline was the name of the game- be it Thommo/Lillee, WI four prong or Imran.
    You always see exponential performances in the period where the sport isnt standardized, simply because the field quality is spread too much and the good ones over-accentuate their records by it.
    Its either that or the men from the pre-war era were stronger, smarter and more skilled than men post-war in general- not just cricket but over every sport.
    Which is the silliest thing i've ever heard and not supported by medical science-infact refuted by medical science.


  5. #215
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    This is a sociologically accepted view in sports. Look at how the aussies whined their tits off when faced with bodyline...and then look in the post 60s era- bodyline was the name of the game- be it Thommo/Lillee, WI four prong or Imran.
    while i do understand your point, i still don't really believe that the tactics of Bodyline have ever been close to repeated in full from 1940 onwards (i remember hearing a story about the Windies using it on England a few years after the original Bodyline, after which rules were implemented to stop the practice).

  6. #216
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox
    while i do understand your point, i still don't really believe that the tactics of Bodyline have ever been close to repeated in full from 1940 onwards (i remember hearing a story about the Windies using it on England a few years after the original Bodyline, after which rules were implemented to stop the practice).
    There was no way bodyline tactics could be repeated once the restriction was placed on fielders behind square on the leg side.

    If this had been in place during the 32-33 series, Bradman would have slaughtered Larwood and company.

  7. #217
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    it is a bit hard to pull and hook your way around it when you have three men on the fence behind square, plus three more catching on the leg side for the fend.

  8. #218
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox
    it is a bit hard to pull and hook your way around it when you have three men on the fence behind square, plus three more catching on the leg side for the fend.
    And yet there are those learned few who feel that faced with these tactics, Bradman countering these with his innovative jumping to the legside and hitting those bouncers towards the off and managing a fifty plus average is shown in poor light !!

  9. #219
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    yup. shows bradman definently had a weakness to a 2-7 field and 4+ bouncers per over. that's how we would have got him out if he were playing in our day.....

    then again, it also makes stan mccabe's innings in the first test all the greater.

  10. #220
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox
    yup. shows bradman definently had a weakness to a 2-7 field and 4+ bouncers per over. that's how we would have got him out if he were playing in our day.....

    then again, it also makes stan mccabe's innings in the first test all the greater.
    Yes it does. But even McCabe could not play two such innings in the series. He scored only 198 runs in the other 9 innings of the series. He averaged 42.8 to Bradman's 56.7 in the series.

    It was just one of those innings. McCabe, a very fine hooker even otherwise, decided to attack and connected most of his hooks.

    One has seen such extraordinary, once in a lifetime innings from others . Randalls innings in the centenary test comes to mind as does Laxman's epic at Calcutta.

    McCabe's innings did not prove as some learned friends have tried to show here. No one, not even McCabe himself believed it was the way to handle it. He couldnt do it again.

    But he did not have Bradmans agility to jump out of way and play from the leg stump and outside to off from bouncing deliveries. So he tried to do the only thing HE was capable of, and in one out of ten innings, he got away and played one of the legendry knocks in history.

  11. #221
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    exactly. there's a story about mccabe walking out and telling his brother to make sure that if he gets hit, don't let his mother jump the fence.

    i think that the gravity of that one innings is further enhanced by his incapability to score again in the series, as well as the failure of the rest of the team to post competitive totals throughout the 32/33 series.

  12. #222
    Cricket Web Staff Member / Global Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat
    Come on, Neil. Let everyone else in on your obsession with Fulton. You wanted to have his babies, didn't you?
    Search for the "Most Overrated Player" thread. That's as much as I'm saying.

    Now I'm going off for a cry.
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  13. #223
    C_C
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    Bodyline was used in 1930 and 1931 first. Infact, it was used in english country cricket before unleashed into the test arena against the aussies. The previous series between ENG and WI saw both sides using bodyline and Learie Constantine was quoted alongside George headley when all the brouhaha about bodyline was going on and said (paraphrasing) "i dont see the cry over it...we used it and faced it before".

    And there is nothing to the leg theory field setting....first, it is inaccurate to say that it has never been used after- Lloyd used it a few times. And second, the real 'cry' was not the field placing but using short pitched bowling targetting the head. If you analyse the dismissals, you will find that far more wickets fell to lbw/bowled and offside catches than legside catches.
    But thats what you get when you are accustomed to facing fast meduim alsorans and essentially slow bowlers while opening.
    if Brian Close was lucky to have survived Mikey Holding's over, i think the likes of Woodfull,Hammond,Hobbs etc. would be lucky not to suffer permanent brain damage for they are toast. Plain and simple toast.

  14. #224
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    Infact, it was used in english country cricket before unleashed into the test arena against the aussies. The previous series between ENG and WI saw both sides using bodyline and Learie Constantine was quoted alongside George headley when all the brouhaha about bodyline was going on and said (paraphrasing) "i dont see the cry over it...we used it and faced it before".
    Nottinghamshire under Arthur Carr, with Larwood and Voce as their opening bowlers, used it in 1932. Carr attempted it post-bodyline and his refusal to give it up eventually lead to his dismissal from captaincy.

    However, West Indies used it only in 1933, not before bodyline. Englishmen were generally of the opinion that Aussies were, shall I say, cowards for their opposition to bodyline. It was the West Indian bodyline bowling particularly in the Manchester Test that made them change their opinion. Hammond was famously quoted saying after his dismissal that 'if this is what the game is coming to, it is time one got out of it'.

    And second, the real 'cry' was not the field placing but using short pitched bowling targetting the head.
    It was the field placing that made bodyline what it is. Bodyline worked because of two things :

    (a) The line made it impossible for the ball to be played anywhere except in the 90 or so degree arc on either side of squareleg. The height meant that every now and then the batsman had to play it in the air.

    (b) With a conventional field setting, and considering the quality of the Australian batsmen and the flat wickets, it is conceivable that the batsmen could have hooked and pulled the way out of it. But the field setting made it impossible. With six men close in on the leg side, and two men on the boundary covering the hook, the batsmen either had to risk giving them a catch, or getting hit.

    Without both, it is not bodyline.

    It required enormous amount of luck for a batsmen to keep hooking successfully. McCabe had one lucky day when he scored 187*. But chances were that soon the batsmen would get out playing it. McCabe kept playing the hook for the rest of the series, but as SJS mentioned above, scored just about as many runs in his nine other innings, as he did in the first innings at Sydney

    first, it is inaccurate to say that it has never been used after- Lloyd used it a few times.
    He could not have. The rule restricting the number of fieldsmen behind squareleg to two was in place well before Lloyd assumed captaincy.


    If you analyse the dismissals, you will find that far more wickets fell to lbw/bowled and offside catches than legside catches.
    To paraphrase Fingleton, the punch that knocks out a boxer is not necessarily the hardest one. But he is set up for it by the hard ones that went before.

    Often it was a quick yorker that came after a series of bouncers that did the trick. That hardly diminishes the importance of the bouncers.
    Last edited by Tapioca; 04-04-2005 at 06:45 PM.

  15. #225
    C_C
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    Put it this way.
    Much is made out of the bodyline series when in reality, 70s and 80s wernt the same.
    If the ball is short and on your body, you have four options : take it on your body, duck/weave, hook and/or pull(depending on the length). Lillee-Thommo, the WI pacers etc. specialised in putting 3-4 bouncers per over and then slipping in the quick yorker or the outswinger that totally outfoxed the batsmen. That is what bodyline was about and it was norm in the 70s/80s. In that aspect, it is no different to bodyline....you either are a master hooker/puller, dodger or you perished eventually from the sheer barrage of bouncers and the KO punch of a yorker/swinger.

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