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KP has his swagger back!

Woodster

International Captain
Meh, I think these are just tags that people like to stick on people after a few notable performances that stay with them for life. For example, 'Bell is a bit soft' or Collingwood is a 'dogged fighter'. Not that it isnt true in some cases (like in Collingwood's) but its a little bit silly when you have to use performances from 5 years ago to justify the logic behind it.
It is the history of the cricketer that forms people's opinions. Collingwood is classed as a dogged fighter because there have been countless examples of him digging his side out of trouble through sheer hard graft. Bell, until recently, had not proved he could perform on a consistent basis when it was absolutely necessary, so people would always pigeon-hole him into the soft category. Understandable, although an allegation I was confident he would overcome.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
As the article says, it was his first hundred for over 18 months, so clearly he has not been in the kind of form associated with a player of his calibre. The 2009 Ashes, he was clearly struggling, and only managed two games!

You're clearly focusing on his away series in SA, not the home on where he averaged over 60, the convenient thing about stats based opinions is being selective which ones you use.

It's clearly a point we will struggle to agree on, that's the way it goes.
Ok, lets talk about the home series against SA then. The stage was set for him in the 2nd innings at Edgbaston, when he made 94 in the 2nd dig, to play a match winning knock and take the game away from South Africa but he ended up playing arguably one of the worst shots of his career with serious consequences that ultimately cost England (and Collingwood) the game and the series.

Of course people will always rave about his century in his first test as captain in a dead rubber game as being the 'big stage' when arguably he went missing in the 2 tests where he was needed the most.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Ok, lets talk about the home series against SA then. The stage was set for him in the 2nd innings at Edgbaston, when he made 94 in the 2nd dig, to play a match winning knock and take the game away from South Africa but he ended up playing arguably one of the worst shots of his career with serious consequences that ultimately cost England (and Collingwood) the game and the series.

Of course people will always rave about his century in his first test as captain in a dead rubber game as being the 'big stage' when arguably he went missing in the 2 tests where he was needed the most.
Yes and 94 is a complete failure ??? He continued to bat positively, whether he's 94 or 24, that's how he plays. Don't think you can isolate a particular shot and say he failed on the big stage. Worse shot of his career ? Do me a favour. What about his 152 in the first Test of that series, his first Test against his homeland, at Lords ?? Hey, it's probably convenient if we forget that one.

Don't think anyone on here is suggesting he always makes the right decision, 100% of the time.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
I know we're talking Tests, but he was MOTT in the T20 WC, our first ever global triumph. Fairly big stage.
Indeed, was a pretty big stage. Anyways, my point is not that he is a bad player on the big stage. Just that hes not as good as he is made out to be. I think there are others that perform just as frequently on the big stage - for example collingwood, but with Pietersen it is every time he performs is considered to be on 'the big stage' and every time he fails it is considered an 'inconsequential' series.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Yes and 94 is a complete failure ??? He continued to bat positively, whether he's 94 or 24, that's how he plays. Don't think you can isolate a particular shot and say he failed on the big stage. Worse shot of his career ? Do me a favour. What about his 152 in the first Test of that series, his first Test against his homeland, at Lords ?? Hey, it's probably convenient if we forget that one.

Don't think anyone on here is suggesting he always makes the right decision, 100% of the time.
No but you brought up that series as an example of him performing on the big stage. I'm just pointing out that perhaps when the stage was set for a big 'Pietersen innings' he disappointed. In the grand scheme of things that was a pivotal moment in the match.

The 100 in his first test as captain was really a meaningless knock in a dead rubber. It gets more credit than it deserves.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Ok, lets talk about the home series against SA then. The stage was set for him in the 2nd innings at Edgbaston, when he made 94 in the 2nd dig, to play a match winning knock and take the game away from South Africa but he ended up playing arguably one of the worst shots of his career with serious consequences that ultimately cost England (and Collingwood) the game and the series.

Of course people will always rave about his century in his first test as captain in a dead rubber game as being the 'big stage' when arguably he went missing in the 2 tests where he was needed the most.
Yeah, that 2nd dig was all Pietersen's fault. We'll just ignore Strauss, Cook, Vaughan and Bell making 71 runs between them.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Yeah, that 2nd dig was all Pietersen's fault. We'll just ignore Strauss, Cook, Vaughan and Bell making 71 runs between them.
Thats not the point I'm getting at here. It wasn't Pietersen's fault that England lost, but much like Michael Clarke's innings yesterday it was necessary for him and Collingwood to get a big score in order for England to have a chance in the game. In that sense, his dismissal was a job half done.

My point here is that a tiny handful of innings in big match situations doesnt make someone a 'big match' player, especially when the majority of them came 5 years ago.
 

Woodster

International Captain
No but you brought up that series as an example of him performing on the big stage. I'm just pointing out that perhaps when the stage was set for a big 'Pietersen innings' he disappointed. In the grand scheme of things that was a pivotal moment in the match.

The 100 in his first test as captain was really a meaningless knock in a dead rubber. It gets more credit than it deserves.
You're still ignoring the series opener, at Lords, against South Africa, for KP it probably doesn't get much bigger than that, except for the Ashes. Yet he smashed 152 and set England up in a winning position of which we could not quite capitalise. First game as captain is undoubtedly huge also, and he scored another ton. You can kinda see where people get the 'big occasion' thing from.

But let's agree to disagree, and focus on his return to form, regardless of the occasion.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
I also don't believe in the notion that he cant motivate himself to perform against the lesser quality teams. Hes thrashed some pretty poor WI bowling attacks around and hes owned some of the worst bowling sides. If anything his record against the best bowling pace bowling attacks (barring Australia) is more questionable than his record against the lesser attacks.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
You're still ignoring the series opener, at Lords, against South Africa, for KP it probably doesn't get much bigger than that, except for the Ashes. Yet he smashed 152 and set England up in a winning position of which we could not quite capitalise. First game as captain is undoubtedly huge also, and he scored another ton. You can kinda see where people get the 'big occasion' thing from.

But let's agree to disagree, and focus on his return to form, regardless of the occasion.
Look, I dont ignore it, that was a big knock my point isnt that KP is a dismal failure in big match situations. Its just that hes had a few performances on the big stage, not much more than any other quality player, just that these performances are all blown out of proportion simply because its 1)KP and 2) because of the tag that was given to him at the start of his career where he had a string of performances in big match situations.

Lets agree to disagree on this topic, I think we've both illustrated our points here well enough. Glad hes back in form.
 

vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I dislike him but he's a quality player and this knock is ominous for bowlers all over the world.
 

King Pietersen

International Captain
Loving the fact he went back to SA and worked with Graham Ford again, seemed to bring the old, flamboyant KP back. We didn't see the nervous, scratchy KP we've seen for the last 8/9 months. He looked confident, was walking across his stumps and playing the outrageous leg-glances, looked good against spin and had his straight drive back. Was vintage Pietersen, and I'm very confident that he'll have an awesome 12 months and get that average back well above 50.
 

Jacknife

International Captain
He averaged 60 with a SR of 70 in the home series against South Africa in 2008, I'd say that was proving a point. The away series drags down his average because he was in shocking form at the time, I reckon Pietersen will end his career with an excellent average against South Africa. This is a guy who on his first tour with England scored 3 tons in a 7 match ODI series in South Africa, remember.
Yes, to be fair to KP, in the winter he rolled up in SA after being out for months, with injury and with it being winter, had no chance to bat at all and find any kind of form what so ever.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
If you can’t score runs on these wickets against this Aus attack, then there is no hope. Nice to see some of the old shots come out again but it wasn’t vintage KP.
 

flibbertyjibber

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Loving the fact he went back to SA and worked with Graham Ford again, seemed to bring the old, flamboyant KP back. We didn't see the nervous, scratchy KP we've seen for the last 8/9 months. He looked confident, was walking across his stumps and playing the outrageous leg-glances, looked good against spin and had his straight drive back. Was vintage Pietersen, and I'm very confident that he'll have an awesome 12 months and get that average back well above 50.
Against this attack he should be upset if he hasn't got his average back over 50 by the end of the series.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Think hes brought back a few things in his game that we haven't seen in a while such as the romp to the off side - flamingo shot. I know he tried to reduce his leg side bias by improving his off side game, but I think that may have made him a better player
 

Howe_zat

Audio File
Against this attack he should be upset if he hasn't got his average back over 50 by the end of the series.
Pietersen needs 124 runs in his next innings to bring his average back to 50. Plausible. He'll need another 50 runs on top of that for each time he gets out this series, so for example if he's out 4 times out of the maximum of 6, he'd need 274 more runs in the series. (Also plausible).
 

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