Distinctly recall McGrath dominating the 96 series against WI at home, humiliating Lara and outperforming Walsh and Ambrose. So no I don't think his peak began in 97, statistically or otherwise. 95 was his breakthrough series and he had several great series after that before even Ashes 1997.
I rate Chappell ahead of Border but I know your love for the latter so I won't argue you on this point.
I am also presenting my speculation but yes if your criteria is cheap dismissals below 20 then the likelihood of Gavaskar scoring more than 20 off the other bowlers is more with Imrans bowling support than Marshalls. Gavaskar is on record saying his job was to see off Imran and milk the other bowlers. How to do that vs WI?
I am not sure what the debate is. If you add Chappell in Australia and Vishwanath in India, they are stronger batting sides which Imran had to face. If you remove them, they are weaker. Yeah Vishwanath isn't ATG but he was a good bat and adding him enhance the threat.
I think he was the better bowler but perhaps you need to do a comprehensive analysis of all bowlers then to determine if this is a direct correlation between getting certain bats out the most and bowling quality. Anderson did better against Tendulkar and maybe Clarke I don't think that makes him a better bowler than Steyn.
This is pretty silly frankly. Your criteria for success against best bats is to dismiss them cheaply, and the moment Imran does that in a series vs Viv in his prime you cry bad form. Bad form (not that he had evidence of that prior) is no excuse, injuries are.
You already admitted aside from Border, there isn't a big difference between Marshall and Imran against best bats. Imran is better against some others. The overall metrics are enough to show Marshalls superiority than this dodgy claim.
Bingo.
Further proof, if any was needed, that you need to reassess your opinions on a grand scale.
I like your posting generally so not in the mood to argue with you
Hmm Keith Miller opened the bowling and batted higher than Imran but he is up there.
Imran just a higher enough tier bowler for Miller's batting advantage to Cover
He wouldn't be able to do that no, but if we say that Gavaskar punished the other Pakistani bowlers for another 10-20 runs before getting out in Imran's first spell of bowling why doesn't his dismissal scores reflect that? His next scores after being dismissed for 17 from Imran are 42 & 44. Those were not in the first spell of bowling. I don't think bowling pressure was the main reason that contributed to Marshall being better at getting out Gavaskar early, it only meant that he got him out for less total runs. It's not just about the 20 runs or less number, it's about getting him out in your first spell of bowling, which is the opening bowlers job.
That is just your opinion, I've backed my reasons up with stats including that he was better at getting him out in India & got him out earlier & cheaper. The only thing you can point to is that he got him out more often from more games. This is while he was opening the bowling for all of them (whereas Marshall was not) & didn't have to compete with high quality bowlers to get him out so Imran directly bowled to Gavaskar ALOT more than Marshall did for a similar rate of matches per dissmisal.
Border is a harder batsman to get out than Gower.
Does the presence of one good batsman at number 4 make it notably harder for the bowler to get the other 5 batsman out?
I only do this between ATG bowlers to decide who should make the first XI because the gaps in quality are smaller at that point. Overall record, skill & peer rep are considered first. That's why someone like Anderson wouldn't come into it. I do think there are certain skill sets that may be more conducive to getting top batsman out when you consider the success of bowlers such as McGrath, Ambrose, Hadlee, Lillee & Marshall. They all had a high level of accuracy, utilised subtle variations of swing/seam movement & were clever bowlers. Imran also had these skill sets (although primarily bowled inswing) hence why he is up there too. So when Marshall can do what Imran can but also swings it both ways + bowls faster while maintaining control that's why I think he is better equipped to get the best out.
No it isn't silly, the reason I bring it up is because Imran only got Viv out once in any other series. So 4 times in a 5 match series where Viv was well below his best given my evidence of what happened in that series rather than historically 6 months prior. After that it was 1 time in 9 matches, not a good return from that point. Considering this whole debate has been about if Imran was as good as Marshall in getting top batsman out I would say consistent success is pretty relevant. Why wasn't he able to get Viv out easily after that series if it wasn't because of bad form?
I've been saying the whole time there is not a big difference, they're both ATG's but there is enough there to say Marshall is slightly better.
Was he below his best or made to look like it because he kept getting out to Imran cheaply.
20 runs is an arbitrary number. And I don't know why you wouldn't think bowling pressure doesn't help Marshall getting cheaper wickets. It makes a heck of a difference if it's Sarfraz or Holding at the other end.
Yeah Imran got him out at a better rate. Even if you want to argue Marshall got him cheaper more often I don't see any major qualitative difference overall.
Again I don't see some big advantage except for Border. The rest are not statistically significant.
You add an ATG bat into a lineup of some good bats and yes it's a big difference overall. Imran just faced stronger lineups more often I don't think you are arguing against that. Marshall in terms of strong lineups likely faced the lowest share of them compared to most ATG pacers.
McGrath is likely the best in terms of records against best bats. Would you rate him ahead of Marshall because of that?
Those other reasons are fine if you want to use them to argue Marshall was better. For me it's the sheer advantage of overall record and peer rep.
Given that he was getting out cheaply to other lower calibre bowlers during that series I don't think it's just down to Imran bowling well.
Lol Viv was below his best in part because Imran was getting him out. There was no extraordinary factor for his poor form. If Imran does well against Viv in a series, you can't sidestep that and pretend it doesn't exist in his record.
Is McGrath better than Marshall because of a small advantage difference against best bats?
Viv getting out randomly to low calibre bowlers was a feature throughout his career. It's not some excuse to use to not count those wickets of his in a series.
It's not arbitrary, I set it at that amount because that's a fair indicator whether the batsmen got out early or not. If I set it at 40 (which is more than a start) it's still the same dismissal numbers. You keep focusing on the number not on what it's representing, which is did they survive the opening spell of bowling? Forget about the run number and tell me did Marshall get Sunny out earlier more often or was it Imran?
A meagre 0.12 dismissals per match higher, despite the fact he would have bowled a considerably larger amount of deliveries with the new ball & in general at Gavaskar. If Marshall bowled to Gavaskar as much as Imran did, Marshalls total dismissals against him would be higher, I don't see how you could argue that given Marshall's superior strike rate.
I personally think one batsman would not amplify the abilities of the other 5 batsman so much that they all become notably harder to get out. I'd be willing to argue at least with an opener they are helping see off the new ball making the job easier for the following bats. But a number 4 bat has no bearing on the performances of the top 3 while he is not out there.
A fair question. No I wouldn't but that is one reason it's close between the 2 of what I think are the best. I personally think Marshall is a bit more threatening with his bowling in general given his overall skillset and strike rate to back that up. So he has more tools at his disposal to get out different styles of top batsman.
That's fair & easier to argue that
But Imran gets out Gavsaskar at the same or higher rate than Marshall, and you admit that Marshalls support bowlers will account for Gavsaskar getting lower scores, that means setting cheap dismissals as criteria helps Marshall.
By the way it's entirely possible for Marshall to be a marginally better new ball bowler (getting Gavsaskar out more then) and Imran a much better old ball bowler and overall bowler but Gavsaskar scores more due to less support. Marshalls exceptional SR also is supported by his support bowlers meaning less load and pressure on him. A lot of problems here.
Great thanks for admitting Imran faced stronger lineups.
Sorry but if you aren't going to apply your criteria consistently to differentiate your ATG bowlers then don't use it to argue Marshall is better than Imran due to best bats.
In part yes but not the sole reason why. I am not sidestepping it, I am merely adding context to the entire dismissal record of Imran vs Viv. Which is that he predominantly got him out in one series where he was below his best. Viv had the better running of this battle outside this series. I am not sidestepping it, this was because you were trying to compare it with Marshall's record against Miandad. So you invited analysis to it, there's no reason to get salty & say I'm "crying about form" because I'm analysing the performances, if you don't like discussing or agreeing with its impact you don't have to.
So I guess that would mean it was easier to get out Viv than Miandad? Which means the comparison between the two wasn't really worthwhile?