why can't england produce a 50+ batsman?

[Hicheal Michael]

Vaughan, Trescothick, KP, Bell, and Trott all averaged significantly more at home than away. Strauss, Cook, and Collingwood were the opposite, averaging more away from home.

 

[GIMH]

Pretty much my thought process. If England were so hard to bat in, you'd think they'd have a plethora of bowlers sub 25, but they haven't.

Is sub 25 a comparable benchmark to plus 50? Genuinely asking, not checked the stats but I think we see the latter more often

 

[ImpatientLime]

Is sub 25 a comparable benchmark to plus 50? Genuinely asking, not checked the stats but I think we see the latter more often

in the same time frame, since 1968. 23 pace bowlers have retired with averages sub 25. that is based on a minimum of 10 games and 10 wickets.

india, england, sri lanka and zimbabwe all failed to register a player in that 23.

then when it comes to spin you get three names. murali, michael bevan and pervez sajjad.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Players from every country struggle to maintain. The difference between these guys and the guys who end up averaging over 50 is that the others managed to average somewhere around 60 for a protracted period. These guys struggled to hit the heights others did more than there being an issue of maintenance.

I think this has some element of truth to it.

Last 2 years, Kohli and Smith* are averaging 70.54 and 66.89 respectively. Root? 46.72

Go 3 years and 2015-2018, Kohli and Smith* are averaging 63.45 and 69.20 respectively. Root? 50.25.

You could argue this coincides with Root's bad form - so you take it back one year (2014-current) - Kohli is at 58.85, Smith at 71.63, Root at 54.15.

A year further still (2013-current), Kohli at 58.50, Smith at 64.56. Root is still at 50.09.


*In fact, Smith is averaging 65+ for last 5 years

 

[Bolo]

I think this has some element of truth to it.

Last 2 years, Kohli and Smith* are averaging 70.54 and 66.89 respectively. Root? 46.72

Go 3 years and 2015-2018, Kohli and Smith* are averaging 63.45 and 69.20 respectively. Root? 50.25.

You could argue this coincides with Root's bad form - so you take it back one year (2014-current) - Kohli is at 58.85, Smith at 71.63, Root at 54.15.

A year further still (2013-current), Kohli at 58.50, Smith at 64.56. Root is still at 50.09.


*In fact, Smith is averaging 65+ for last 5 years

Root does feel like he's struggled to maintain- averaged in the late 50s for a fair while at the start.

If you look at guys like cook and Pietersen, they only have one year averaging above 60 each, and are below 40 most of the time.

You get guys like gooch who managed the odd really good run, but these are just purple patches. Nobody maintains them.

 

[Starfighter]

I think it's because English cricket is just naturally ****.

 

[Groundking]

It's more that they were better than English bats of recent years. Mid 50s away averages for both. Maybe they would have struggled to maintain their averages with the Duke, but they are as about good away as anyone since Bradman.



Skills developed for English conditions. They don't transfer well.

Plus there is the fact that England have simply not produced exceptional cricketers in ages, just a lot of good ones.

But you're not taking into account the fact that if they had the duke ball which makes it harder to bat and therefore scoring less at home it's more likely to cause bigger swings in form, and because the batsmen are out or in lesser form more it could affect the away average as they have less momentum to do well in unfamiliar conditions.

 

[Bolo]

But you're not taking into account the fact that if they had the duke ball which makes it harder to bat and therefore scoring less at home it's more likely to cause bigger swings in form, and because the batsmen are out or in lesser form more it could affect the away average as they have less momentum to do well in unfamiliar conditions.

My logic isn't identical to yours, but if you look at my first post in the thread, you can see that I am accounting for conditions.

AB and Kallis were simply superior bats to anyone England has produced in recent years though. AB was more talented, and Kallis was a mix of talent and application.

 

[Groundking]

My logic isn't identical to yours, but if you look at my first post in the thread, you can see that I am accounting for conditions.

AB and Kallis were simply superior bats to anyone England has produced in recent years though. AB was more talented, and Kallis was a mix of talent and application.

I disagree with this, I don't think they're more talented the Pieterson or Root.

 

[Daemon]

I disagree with this, I don't think they're more talented the Pieterson or Root.

He said superior though, which they clearly were.

 

[Bolo]

I disagree with this, I don't think they're more talented the Pieterson or Root.

AB was as talented as anyone to have played. Kallis was extremely talented (debut as a teenager, not normal for South Africans at all) plus used his talent really well.

Pietersen not as talented as either. Played his entire career in his prime (improvement/qualification and discipline issues). Kallis and AB both averaged close to 60 in similar age ranges. Would have averaged close to 40 if he'd played as long as Kallis.

Not too sure how to assess root yet. He could end up with a monster average still.

 

[mr_mister]

As earlier alluded to they haven't produced bowlers who could average under 25 either so it's fair to say English cricket is poor on the whole

 

[flibbertyjibber]

As earlier alluded to they haven't produced bowlers who could average under 25 either so it's fair to say English cricket is poor on the whole

Yet we have won 4 of the last 6 ashes series.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yet we have won 4 of the last 6 ashes series.

Hardly a definitive measure by any means

I do find it interesting though that England haven't produced a 50+ averaging batsman for so long. I would have put it down to English conditions but MrMr is right on the money in saying that it can't really be that because then why aren't England producing the lowest averaging bowlers which would be the logical result?

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Hardly a definitive measure by any means

Only series that counts in some eyes.

 

[mr_mister]

Yet we have won 4 of the last 6 ashes series.

We have won 10 of the last 14

 

[Daemon]

As earlier alluded to they haven't produced bowlers who could average under 25 either so it's fair to say English cricket is poor on the whole

Agreed. 2 Asian sides have managed to draw 3 series there in the last few years. Not even NZ let that happen. The harsh truth is that they're no good.

 

[trundler]

No 50+ batsman since 1968.
Number of county games was decreased in 1969. Could have something to do with it.

 

[mr_mister]

It's so funny Ramps was given 50+ tests with an average of 27


Talk about having faith in a guy

 

[GoodAreasShane]

The last genuine ATG from England was Botham. Can't stand the bloke but he was capable of brilliance. The closest of recent times was KP, but he still falls short.