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Why 3 seamers?

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Sometimes, I think Ganguly's just plain stupid, when he repeats the same big mistakes so often.

Why 3 seamers? What sort of a seam attack is this? Why, when you have 2 quality spinners in your team? Against a batting side that is bred on seam bowling much better than what we are seeing now? In fact, Ganguly seems a better bowler than Agarkar at times, at least he uses the conditions well.

Look at Indian bowling attacks of the past that actually won matches for the team away from home. Who were the best bowlers? The spinners.

In Australia, the Indians have won just 3 matches. In 2 of them, Prasanna, Bedi and Chandrashekhar ran through the Australian teams, when they won those matches.

Even in the last away series they won, it was the spinners who had an important role to play. Even in the last few away Tests, the best bowlers have been spinners.

Look at the Test series in the West Indies that the Indians last played. The West Indian pitches favour the seamers. But who was your best bowler? Harbhajan Singh. He was the only bowler to average in the 20's and took a 5-wicket haul. He did far better than all the so-called fast bowlers put together.

In the Test series in England, the seamers disappointed, yet again. But it was likely to happen with Agarkar bowling. He bowls rubbish, so does the rest of the seam 'attack'. But when the Indians played both Kumble and Harbhajan, they won that match in Headingley. The pair were the best bowlers in that series for the Indians.

Even in New Zealand, on those seamer-friendly grasslands that are sometimes called cricket pitches, Harbhajan put up a better bowling performance than Nehra and Agarkar put together. Even on 'seamer-friendly' Mohali, Kumble and Harbhajan took 15 wickets between them to defeat the English in 2001.

You can have one good look at the bowling averages of the spinners, then the 'seamers', then decide who are the best bowlers at hand. The Indians always make this mistake of picking 5 'fast' bowlers for an away series and what happens? At least 1 or 2 don't even get a match! They are just net bowlers! At least if they played that extra spinner, he would get that odd match.

Whenever the Australians come to India or Sri Lanka, do they load the team with spinners? No, just Shane Warne and a back-up spinner, mostly for Test matches. The West Indians don't believe in picking a spinner just to have one in your team. They always play their best bowlers, irrespective of whether they are spinners or seamers. These teams play to their strengths. If the Indians played to their main strength, they would have won a few more matches abroad.

On present form, Kumble is a better bowler than Agarkar and Nehra put together. Why he was not picked is a mystery. Same for Karthik's exclusion. Australian pitches may suit seamers, but Australians thrive on seam bowling just as much. I think teams should be picked more on opposition strengths and weaknesses. Which cannot be said of the selectors.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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Arjun said:
Look at the Test series in the West Indies that the Indians last played. The West Indian pitches favour the seamers.
West Indian pitches do not favour seamers.
 

mavric41

State Vice-Captain
You have made some very valid points. The only reason to play the 3 seamers in Brisbane is exploit the conditions (Greentop, movement off the wicket etc) and the fact that it doesn't help any spinners much.

But on the other pitches I agree with you and they should play the 2 spinners.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
If India go into a Test with 2 frontline seamers, then I could see them getting even more horrifically beaten.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Then why not lave out say Chopra and Patel, play Dasgupt and letting him open and playing four quicks and a spinner?
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Originally posted by Mr Mxyzptlk
West Indian pitches do not favour seamers
The Jamaica pitch had enough grass.

Originally posted by an Agarkar fan
If India go into a Test with 2 frontline seamers, then I could see them getting even more horrifically beaten.
Do you think India's so-called seamers can do any better? What about your favourite player? With his bowling average of 47?

Originally posted by Craig
Then why not lave out say Chopra and Patel, play Dasgupt and letting him open and playing four quicks and a spinner?
I don't understand this.

Dasgupta can neither keep nor open. Remember his last 5 Tests? Remember the Carl Hooper drop?

Chopra should establish himself against weak bowling attacks first.

Look, this is not the West Indies. There's no point playing 4 quicks just to have them. Play your best bowlers.

Unless you're suggesting out of the box.

Originally posted by mavric41
The only reason to play the 3 seamers in Brisbane is exploit the conditions (Greentop, movement off the wicket etc) and the fact that it doesn't help any spinners much.
Little guys like Agarkar can't make use of the conditions, because of their height. Besides, bowling 4 good balls, then 2 bad balls is NOT the way to use the conditions.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Craig said:
Then why not lave out say Chopra and Patel, play Dasgupt and letting him open and playing four quicks and a spinner?
The tail would then start at 7.
 

Craig

World Traveller
That is the only way I could work out if India wanted to play 4 quick and 1 spinner.

Banger may not of been the greatest cricketer but at least he gave India a bowling 4th seaming bowling option.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Banger may not of been the greatest cricketer but at least he gave India a bowling 4th seaming bowling option.
Good point. At least he uses the conditions well. But what if the conditions don't suit him?

Besides, the Indian think(?)-tank uses him more often as a batsman. He's a much better bowler than he is a batsman.

However, his main weakness is his lack of pace. That counts against good batting sides and on flat pitches.
 

V Reddy

International Debutant
I agree with most of your points. Bangar would have been an ideal option. Two spinners and Two seamers seems to be the better option for India as AA is very inconsistent in tests .
 

amits

Banned
arjun, i will go with 2 seamers and 2 spinners. seamers r also required and i will go with zaheer and nehra/agarkar in the seam department. 2 seamers r a must.

australian pitches, especially at brisbane and perth r suited to fast bowling so in these pitches, selceting 2 spinners is stupidity. for the next 2 macthes, i will go with 2 spinners and as the sydney pitch assists spinners, i will go with 3.

this is beyond understanding that y wasnt kartik selected for the aussie tour. kartik, would have been useful in these conditions and he bats well too.

agarkar, is more of a batsman than a bowler and he is more suited to the odis. in tests, if he doesnt do well, he should be dropped. his competition is with nehra for the 2nd slot.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
amits said:
australian pitches, especially at brisbane and perth r suited to fast bowling so in these pitches, selceting 2 spinners is stupidity. for the next 2 macthes, i will go with 2 spinners and as the sydney pitch assists spinners, i will go with 3.
3 spinners?

Are you out of your mind.

That would mean Ganguly taking the new ball then,that'll have Hayden and Langer up all night with fear.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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marc71178 said:
That would mean Ganguly taking the new ball then,that'll have Hayden and Langer up all night with fear.
Are you downplaying the deadly medium pace swing of on Sourav Ganguly???
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Originally posted by marc71178
3 spinners?

Are you out of your mind.

That would mean Ganguly taking the new ball then,that'll have Hayden and Langer up all night with fear.
Ganguly is a much better bowler than many think he is.

All he needs to do is practice.

Remember the old Indian teams of the 70's and early 80's ? They played 3 spinners and won matches abroad.

Spin is our main strength, so it's a good idea to play 3 spinners.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Arjun said:
Ganguly is a much better bowler than many think he is.
Which isn't saying a lot.


Arjun said:
All he needs to do is practice.
Well I note there's at least 2 days practise scheduled for every Test Match on this tour (they're called the 4th and 5th Days of the Test)


Arjun said:
Spin is our main strength, so it's a good idea to play 3 spinners.
And 1 seamer? That is crazy, and will only serve t make the defeats even larger!
 

anzac

International Debutant
Arjun said:
Even in New Zealand, on those seamer-friendly grasslands that are sometimes called cricket pitches, Harbhajan put up a better bowling performance than Nehra and Agarkar put together.

just a slightly frustrated & emotive exageration regarding NZ conditions........

NZ pitches had a reputation until recently of being low & slow & not really suiting either the bowlers or the batsmen. Hence the reason why NZ has so many military fast / med seam bowlers.

This is one of the reasons why NZCC has embarked on a program to develop pitches with more pace & carry. In more recent times the begining of the NZ domestic season has been plagued by wet weather which has adversly affected the pitch preparation, as seen in the Indian tour.

If the NZ pitches were so seamer friendly then we should see far more genuine seamers than we do and of a better pace & quality.

:)
 

anzac

International Debutant
back on topic..

IMO the current Aussie pitches are not as friendly to finger spin as they used to - hence the Aussies having so many wrist spinners to the fore these days.

Playing to your strengths is one thing but it still does not mean that the current crop of spinners would have the same successes as their predecessors, as conditions are very different. Perhaps it might slow the run rate however, but I doubt that playing 2 or 3 spinners (predominately finger spin), would take 20 wickets required to win a match.

:)
 

Salamuddin

International Debutant
I agree with Arjun that India should have looked to attack Australia with spin.
Leaving Murali Karthik at home was a big mistake but enough of that.
At Adelaide and Sydney, India must play both Harbhajan and Kumble.

Until India develop a world class pace attack (which they may well have in the future with guys like Pathan, Munaf and sidthath Trivedi, VRV Singh coming up), their best approach in overseas tests is to bat first whenever favourable to give maximum assistance to their spinners on days four and five.

And no I don't think the margins of defeats will be greater with a spin attack -- Kumble is not as effective as a genuine wrist spinner. However if India's batsmen can support him with a lot of runs, he may come into his own at Adelaide or Sydney where you do start to get inconsistencies in the bounce later on.

On India's last tour, Kumble was the architect of their only first class win against NSW at Sydney and the then NSW captain Michael Bevan was correct to say that if there was one place that Kumble would be dangerous was at Sydney.

Of course Kumble was lacklustre in the subsequent Sydney test but the pitch was not a typical Sydney wicket and his batsmen failed to put the runs on the board.

The only way I can see iNdia bowling Australia out twice is thru Harbhajan and Kumble bowling to Australia chasing a 300-350 fourth Innings total on a wearing wicket.

That will happen only:
1) If India win the toss and Bat
2) If India post a first innings of around 450
3) If India restrict Australia in their first innings
4) If India do not fritter away the advantage in their 2nd dig

Pretty big ifs.....but hey cricket is a funny game
 

Craig

World Traveller
Arjun said:
I don't understand this.

Dasgupta can neither keep nor open. Remember his last 5 Tests? Remember the Carl Hooper drop?

Chopra should establish himself against weak bowling attacks first.

Look, this is not the West Indies. There's no point playing 4 quicks just to have them. Play your best bowlers.

Unless you are suggesting out of the box.
Yes I am.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
3 spinners?

Are you out of your mind.

That would mean Ganguly taking the new ball then,that'll have Hayden and Langer up all night with fear.
And Nehra and Khan will either?
Methinks not. I can't see this much grass being left at Adelaide and Khan and Nehra are no better than Ganguly in conditions which do not assist seam and swing. Though Ganguly doesn't help himself by bowling all the no-balls he always does.
 

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