Who's the better all rounder, Kapil Dev vs Ian Botham?

[Richard]

when the subjectivity about the could've, should've(in terms of periods to block out, periods to highlight etc) is arbitrarily(however logical you feel it is, it is still just your feeling) decided by you, it would be almost impossible to apply the same criteria(even similar parameters would be tough) to all these players because all these players had quite different careers in terms of length, achievements, injury time-outs, teams they played in, the roles they handled etc and the only thing binding them is that they were all great...and at that point, any objectivity goes for a toss...

I apply the fairest criteria I can think of. As long as I make an effort to do so wherever I feel applicable, I fell there is an element of objectivity about it.

If someone wishes to decide they prefer to look at Player A on the basis of good+not-very-good and Player B on the basis of only-when-good (because that's all the player and\or selectors allowed us to see), that's their choice. I'll try and persuade them to do otherwise, of course, but you (and anyone else) can apply their own criteria.

 

[CricketFan90s]

i have no such qualms, i am as comfortable with criticizing his weaknesses as praising the effervescent brilliance of his early days...

Kapil Dev took 89 Wickets at an Avg of 24.89 vs West Indies and Ian Botham took 61 Wickets at an Avg of 35.18
In West Indies Kapil Dev took 35 Wickets at an Avg of 23.11 and Ian Botham took 26 Wickets at an Avg of 39.50
Kapil Dev scored 1079 runs at an Avg of 30.82 and Botham scored 792 runs at an Avg of 21.40 vs West Indies
In West Indies Kapil scored 345 at an Avg of 28.75 and Botham scored 241 runs at an Avg of 14.17

Kapil Dev >> Ian Botham

 

[Gob]

Kapil Dev took 89 Wickets at an Avg of 24.89 vs West Indies and Ian Botham took 61 Wickets at an Avg of 35.18
In West Indies Kapil Dev took 35 Wickets at an Avg of 23.11 and Ian Botham took 26 Wickets at an Avg of 39.50
Kapil Dev scored 1079 runs at an Avg of 30.82 and Botham scored 792 runs at an Avg of 21.40 vs West Indies
In West Indies Kapil scored 345 at an Avg of 28.75 and Botham scored 241 runs at an Avg of 14.17

Kapil Dev >> Ian Botham

Botham was good mates with most of the WI team and especially Richards due to most WI players from that era constantly taking part in county cricket (unlike Kapil who never got along well with players in his own side leave aside opposition teams according to Gavaskar). It could be the case that Botham lost a bit of his competitive edge and killer instincts when playing WI

 

[CricketFan90s]

Botham was good mates with most of the WI team and especially Richards due to most WI players from that era constantly taking part in county cricket (unlike Kapil who never got along well with players in his own side leave aside opposition teams according to Gavaskar). It could be the case that Botham lost a bit of his competitive edge and killer instincts when playing WI

I am not interested in Public Relations Botham maintained. He was supposed to do atleast a decent job against the Best bowling lineup in the world.

 

[Gob]

I am not interested in Public Relations Botham maintained. He was supposed to do atleast a decent job against the Best bowling lineup in the world.

Yes but subconsciously it could play a part I mean after all, even the top athletes are human not machines.

IMO similar thing happened with Warne and India. I've heard stories that whenever Aust toured India during Warne's time, he was often invited to Tendulkar's house for dinner and at times Warne was spending more time in Tendulkar house hold than he was in Aust set up. This was well documented in buchanan's autobiography 'Some how I coach' and how it some times affect Warne's iron will to rip India and especially Tendulkar apart.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Prabhakar was the only one of the three good enough to open the batting, so he's clearly the best of the trio.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Yes but subconsciously it could play a part I mean after all, even the top athletes are human not machines.

IMO similar thing happened with Warne and India. I've heard stories that whenever Aust toured India during Warne's time, he was often invited to Tendulkar's house for dinner and at times Warne was spending more time in Tendulkar house hold than he was in Aust set up. This was well documented in buchanan's autobiography 'Some how I coach' and how it some times affect Warne's iron will to rip India and especially Tendulkar apart.

Ian Botham was a good marketing product unlike Kapil Dev and the same logic goes with Shane Warne when compared to Muralitharan.
English Media hype, Quality players in World Series Cricket in the early part of his career, Unable to maintain good fitness cost him his back.
Kapil Dev was very consistent as he was a better athlete.
Warne might have flopped against India but still we regard him the best spinner in the world as he had only one competitor of his calibre Murali who also flopped in India and also in Australia.

Warne took 34 wickets at an Avg of 43.11 in India
Murali took 40 Wickets at an Avg of 45.45 in India

So Indian Batsmen were too good against Spin Bowling in India.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Warne took 34 wickets at an Avg of 43.11 in India
Murali took 40 Wickets at an Avg of 45.45 in India

So Indian Batsmen were too good against Spin Bowling in India.

Ajaz Patel is the most successful foreign spinner in India in the modern era - much better than pretenders like Warne and Murali.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Ajaz Patel is the most successful foreign spinner in India in the modern era - much better than pretenders like Warne and Murali.

I am only commenting on the players Warne and Murali played during their Era like Dravid Laxman Sachin Ganguly Sehwag. The advantage these Batsmen had was in nets they could practice with Kumble and Harbhajan which could have given them very good confidence to play Warne and Murali.

 

[Ashes81]

Botham at his best was a simply brilliant player who could win a match with either bat or ball.

He was a brilliant swing bowler when he started but injuries caught up with him as his career progressed.

As a batsman he was a brutal middle order player who developed his game as he got older.

He was also a brilliant slip fielder at 2nd slip - as good as I've seen and stood closer to the bat than any other 2nd slip to give himself a chance of catching chances that wouldn't have reached others.

As a bloke he was and still is a complete tory gob****e. He under achieved due a lack of professionalism. He was sometimes over weight and unfit.

But what a player at his peak.

Kapil Dev was a mighty fine player as well, he could.swing and seam the ball and was a very good lower middle order player.

But Botham was a level above at his best. The 1981 Ashes - well I've never seen a player have such an influence on a series. No other player could go from getting sacked as captain to national hero so quickly.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Botham at his best was a simply brilliant player who could win a match with either bat or ball.

He was a brilliant swing bowler when he started but injuries caught up with him as his career progressed.

As a batsman he was a brutal middle order player who developed his game as he got older.

He was also a brilliant slip fielder at 2nd slip - as good as I've seen and stood closer to the bat than any other 2nd slip to give himself a chance of catching chances that wouldn't have reached others.

As a bloke he was and still is a complete tory gob****e. He under achieved due a lack of professionalism. He was sometimes over weight and unfit.

But what a player at his peak.

Kapil Dev was a mighty fine player as well, he could.swing and seam the ball and was a very good lower middle order player.

But Botham was a level above at his best. The 1981 Ashes - well I've never seen a player have such an influence on a series. No other player could go from getting sacked as captain to national hero so quickly.

He was great against Australia but poor against West Indies. However, Ashley Mallett once said that he will rate Kapil a class above Botham as bowler. In ashes 1977-1987 Botham played a huge role in Ashes Victories for England. However, the best team in that era was not Australia ?? but it was West Indies. West Indies won 2 series 5-0 in 1984 and 5-0 in 1986 and Botham was thrashed. Australia was clearly no3 team in that era. So Botham can be called Ashes Hero for England but when comparing with other Allrounders we have to judge him without bias. Kapil Dev in 1983 scored 100 runs in 95 balls in West Indies against the bowling attack of Roberts,Holding,Marshall and Garner and 98 runs in 97 balls against Marshall, holding, roberts in West Indies. No one speaks about those knocks. He scored another century against South Africa when Allan Donald was in super form. So Kapil had his moments like Botham. But 1981 Ashes was very memorable but it doesn’t mean Botham is better than Kapil.

 

[Coronis]

I guess it all depends how important performance is against X team for how you rate a player. ftr

Botham
Against WI: 20 matches, 792 runs @ 21.40 with 0 tons, 61 wickets @ 35.18 with 3 5’fers
Everyone Else: 82 matches, 4408 runs @ 37.35 with 14 tons, 322 wickets @ 27.11 with 24 5’fers

Dev
Against WI: 25 matches, 1079 @ 30.82 with 3 tons, 89 wickets @ 24.89 with 4 5’fers
Everyone Else: 106 matches, 4169 @ 31.11 with 5 tons, 345 @ 30.87 with 19 5’fers

 

[Gob]

He was great against Australia but poor against West Indies. However, Ashley Mallett once said that he will rate Kapil a class above Botham as bowler. In ashes 1977-1987 Botham played a huge role in Ashes Victories for England. However, the best team in that era was not Australia ?? but it was West Indies. West Indies won 2 series 5-0 in 1984 and 5-0 in 1986 and Botham was thrashed. Australia was clearly no3 team in that era. So Botham can be called Ashes Hero for England but when comparing with other Allrounders we have to judge him without bias. Kapil Dev in 1983 scored 100 runs in 95 balls in West Indies against the bowling attack of Roberts,Holding,Marshall and Garner and 98 runs in 97 balls against Marshall, holding, roberts in West Indies. No one speaks about those knocks. He scored another century against South Africa when Allan Donald was in super form. So Kapil had his moments like Botham. But 1981 Ashes was very memorable but it doesn’t mean Botham is better than Kapil.

In all seriousness, performing well against the best side is admirable and gives you a lot of credit comparatively however it is not the only metric in which a player should be rated otherwise Laxman would be superior to Dravid. I'm not saying Laxman and Dravid were statistical equivalent of Kapil and Botham but you get the idea.

Its also worth noticing that you can pick a point in Botham's career where he was averaging 23 with the ball while having taken more wickets than Holding. He had some great feats in India as well

 

[Fuller Pilch]

In ashes 1977-1987 Botham played a huge role in Ashes Victories for England. However, the best team in that era was not Australia ?? but it was West Indies. West Indies won 2 series 5-0 in 1984 and 5-0 in 1986 and Botham was thrashed.

Australia was clearly no3 team in that era.

In that era
1. West Indies
2. Pakistan
3. NZ
4/5. England/Australia
6. India
7. Sri Lanka

 

[CricketFan90s]

In all seriousness, performing well against the best side is admirable and gives you a lot of credit comparatively however it is not the only metric in which a player should be rated otherwise Laxman would be superior to Dravid. I'm not saying Laxman and Dravid were statistical equivalent of Kapil and Botham but you get the idea.

Its also worth noticing that you can pick a point in Botham's career where he was averaging 23 with the ball while having taken more wickets than Holding. He had some great feats in India as well

I am scrutinizing Botham only because he was statistically and achievement wise very close to Kapil. I don’t do the same comparison for Shane Warne as there is no leg spinner of his calibre.

 

[h_hurricane]

Yes but subconsciously it could play a part I mean after all, even the top athletes are human not machines.

IMO similar thing happened with Warne and India. I've heard stories that whenever Aust toured India during Warne's time, he was often invited to Tendulkar's house for dinner and at times Warne was spending more time in Tendulkar house hold than he was in Aust set up. This was well documented in buchanan's autobiography 'Some how I coach' and how it some times affect Warne's iron will to rip India and especially Tendulkar apart.

Australians did the same with Agarkar too.

 

[CricketFan90s]

In that era
1. West Indies
2. Pakistan
3. NZ
4/5. England/Australia
6. India
7. Sri Lanka

Kapil was definitely the better bowler as he opened the innings with the new ball for india on subcontinent pitches. He will be in a team a perfect no 8 if you want some quick runs at the end against top quality bowling which I doubt if botham can deliver ?

 

[CricketFan90s]

Australians did the same with Agarkar too.

These reasons don’t apply. At the end of the day did Shane Warne did well in India or not is the question. Before match how many beers ? he consumed or Tendulkar gave good hospitality all these factors are used just to defend their inability to succeed. These factors apply to opponent teams too not only for Warne.

 

[CricketFan90s]

In that era
1. West Indies
2. Pakistan
3. NZ
4/5. England/Australia
6. India
7. Sri Lanka

Botham is praised too much because he restored the pride of England when they we’re simultaneously butchered by West Indies. So England Media made him a Super Hero. He was very Successful early part of his career but opponents figured his weakness and once he reached the Dennis Lillee figures of 355 test wickets, his fire ? was gone and should have retired immediately to have good stats.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Performing for 3 or 4 years means very little in the career of a guy who played international cricket regularly for 15 years.

Considering just the peaks is not the proper way of rating players.If it was,then
Yousuf in 2005=Bradman
Hirwani in his debut series=best bowler ever

Beside just peak,you should also consider overall careers also.S0,peak period + overall career should be used to analyze the quality of a player.

Well Said we have to analyze the entire career ?