Who was Australia's greatest ever captain?

[TheJediBrah]

All I mean to illustrate is that something as narrow as that could have cost Australia the series. Harsh to blame Ponting.

There were so many little factors like this in the 2005 that affected this. It really did need a perfect, freakish storm of coincidences for that English side to compete with, let alone beat that Aus side.

other than the whole glove handle thing:
- very one-sided (unintentional I'm sure) umpiring (Martyn alone was given out lbw 2-3 times from inside edges IIRC)
- whole England team in best form of their lives
- most of Aus team in worst form of their lives
- McGrath stepping on the ball
- England discovering & utilising perfectly the most effective form of ball-tampering to this day
- weather in the last test making Aus forcing a result very difficult
(- that whole sub fielder thing with Gary Pratt replacing England's **** fielders, or was that 2009?)

Take any of those away and the result is probably different. I don't really think Ponting's captaincy was that bad tbh, or really a factor.

He shouldn't be getting mentioned in this thread as an option though.

 

[subshakerz]

There were so many little factors like this in the 2005 that affected this. It really did need a perfect, freakish storm of coincidences for that English side to compete with, let alone beat that Aus side.

other than the whole glove handle thing:
- very one-sided (unintentional I'm sure) umpiring (Martyn alone was given out lbw 2-3 times from inside edges IIRC)
- whole England team in best form of their lives
- most of Aus team in worst form of their lives
- McGrath stepping on the ball
- England discovering & utilising perfectly the most effective form of ball-tampering to this day
- weather in the last test making Aus forcing a result very difficult
(- that whole sub fielder thing with Gary Pratt replacing England's **** fielders, or was that 2009?)

Take any of those away and the result is probably different. I don't really think Ponting's captaincy was that bad tbh, or really a factor.

He shouldn't be getting mentioned in this thread as an option though.

I think 2005 in isolation is not enough, but when added with other winnable series like 2009 against England and 2008 against SA and against India mentioned earlier, it shows a trend in his test captaincy.

 

[fruitycreeper]

Bowden was terrible that series, even leaving aside that decision.

ye btut tbf everyone likes him because his bent finger

 

[Top_Cat]

There were so many little factors like this in the 2005 that affected this. It really did need a perfect, freakish storm of coincidences for that English side to compete with, let alone beat that Aus side.

other than the whole glove handle thing:
- very one-sided (unintentional I'm sure) umpiring (Martyn alone was given out lbw 2-3 times from inside edges IIRC)
- whole England team in best form of their lives
- most of Aus team in worst form of their lives
- McGrath stepping on the ball
- England discovering & utilising perfectly the most effective form of ball-tampering to this day
- weather in the last test making Aus forcing a result very difficult
(- that whole sub fielder thing with Gary Pratt replacing England's **** fielders, or was that 2009?)

Take any of those away and the result is probably different. I don't really think Ponting's captaincy was that bad tbh, or really a factor.

He shouldn't be getting mentioned in this thread as an option though.

Basically the same side beat India in India then torched both Pakistan and NZ at home and NZ away on the back of their batting. Then they won the ODI series immediately before the Test series 2-1. Only Hayden and Clarke could claim a significant gap between a prior good score and the Test series beginning. Them aside, Langer was travelling okay whilst Gilchrist, Martyn and Ponting came into it red hot.

Half the XI were killing it and then they slayed England in the first Test. Whatever the other reasons for the loss, form wasn't one of them.

 

[vcs]

I think 2005 in isolation is not enough, but when added with other winnable series like 2009 against England and 2008 against SA and against India mentioned earlier, it shows a trend in his test captaincy.

He also won a series in SA in 2009 with an attack of Johnson-Hilfenhaus-Siddle-Andrew McDonald (LOL). I think Hilfenhaus and Siddle were also pretty new then.

 

[stephen]

He also won a series in SA in 2009 with an attack of Johnson-Hilfenhaus-Siddle-Andrew McDonald (LOL). I think Hilfenhaus and Siddle were also pretty new then.

It took Rabada/Ngidi/Philander/ABdV and a ball tampering scandal for SA to finally beat Australia at home though. Australia always seems to lift when touring SA.

 

[Burgey]

He also won a series in SA in 2009 with an attack of Johnson-Hilfenhaus-Siddle-Andrew McDonald (LOL). I think Hilfenhaus and Siddle were also pretty new then.

Johnson was God-like in that series with bat and ball. Also, The Prince

 

[TheJediBrah]

Basically the same side beat India in India then torched both Pakistan and NZ at home and NZ away on the back of their batting. Then they won the ODI series immediately before the Test series 2-1. Only Hayden and Clarke could claim a significant gap between a prior good score and the Test series beginning. Them aside, Langer was travelling okay whilst Gilchrist, Martyn and Ponting came into it red hot.

Half the XI were killing it and then they slayed England in the first Test. Whatever the other reasons for the loss, form wasn't one of them.

There were 2 ODI series before the Tests. The 2-1 you mentioned was after the tri-series which was excruciatingly close and if anything I'd say England were the better performed team (Aus even famously lost to Bangladesh in that series)

I don't think their form months prior to the tour really influences their form on the tour, which ranged from poor to average. I don't mean to take all the credit away from England's bowlers in that series because they definitely (with some assistance) had the Aussie bats on toast. The most noticeable for me was the bowling. Obviously losing McGrath was huge, and proved decisive, but what happened to Gillespie was just as big a factor. He was so bad and probably never should have been selected, would've struggled at club cricket the way he as bowling regardless of how good he was in the previous series' months prior. Warne was in the form of his life though.

It took Rabada/Ngidi/Philander/ABdV and a ball tampering scandal for SA to finally beat Australia at home though. Australia always seems to lift when touring SA.

SA were well on the way to winning the series anyway. The Aussies were in no place mentally fight back from 2-1.

Johnson was God-like in that series with bat and ball. Also, The Prince

I remember where I was when he was unluckily caught behind for a duck on the first morning of his debut. It was pretty devastating, but his next 3 innings were worth it. Still hurts how selectors threw him aside in the 2009 Ashes after 3 innings.

 

[Burgey]

Interesting (and appropriate) that no Victorians are mentioned in this discussion.

 

[jimmy101]

The finest Victorian specimen would have to be Lawry I suppose. Although I'm not sure how much he'd figure into the conversation.

 

[Burgey]

No, I think Bill Woodfull would be it. In a typically Australian (though very atypically Victorian) way, he stood up to the dirty cheating Bodyline filth without resorting to it, then went to England in 34 and won the Ashes back. By all reports a great man.

 

[jimmy101]

Funny thing is when Ian Chappell took over the captaincy, one of the first things his grandfather Vic Richardson said to him was "Whatever you do, don't captain the side like a Victorian!"

 

[TheJediBrah]

Funny thing is when Ian Chappell took over the captaincy, one of the first things his grandfather Vic Richardson said to him was "Whatever you do, don't captain the side like a Victorian!"

You shouldn't joke about senility, it could happen to anyone

 

[jimmy101]

Come to think of it, the most accomplished Victorian skipper may very well be Warwick Armstrong. Oversaw the first ever Ashes whitewash in 1920/21, and then captained Australia to success in South Africa shortly thereafter. Was the most dominant Australian team up until the 1948 invincibles.