Who is the best old ball bowler of all-time?

[subshakerz]

And that doesn't include when he goes after Ash, Lara etc etc. But he's not being petty or hating on anyone.

How does critiquing Ashwin help with Imran, if your theory is correct?

 

[The Sean]

I'm on record as rating Imran higher than many here as a pure bowler, so am likely looking for reasons to big him up.

But from his breakthrough match at the SCG in January 1977 to what was probably his last genuinely great Test bowling performance at Queens Park in April 1988, Imran's away record reads 174 wickets at 22.71.

If we include WSC (which I guess was technically four away matches plus one neutral one), his away record in that period is 199 wickets at 22.47. So, near as dammit 200 wickets at 22, over a period of more than 11 years.

I mean, that's pretty bloody good. And it includes being cut down by injury in the middle of arguably the greatest peak of any fast bowler to the point where he didn't bowl a ball in Test cricket for nearly three years.

 

[kyear2]

Let him agree with me. Why do you feel so threatened?

By you? Really?

I was making a point about contradictions.

Are you really that insecure?

 

[Johan]

I'm on record as rating Imran higher than many here as a pure bowler, so am likely looking for reasons to big him up.

But from his breakthrough match at the SCG in January 1977 to what was probably his last genuinely great Test bowling performance at Queens Park in April 1988, Imran's away record reads 174 wickets at 22.71.

If we include WSC (which I guess was technically four away matches plus one neutral one), his away record in that period is 199 wickets at 22.47. So, near as dammit 200 wickets at 22, over a period of more than 11 years.

I mean, that's pretty bloody good. And it includes being cut down by injury in the middle of arguably the greatest peak of any fast bowler to the point where he didn't bowl a ball in Test cricket for nearly three years.

Honestly his away record has never been the issue with him.

 

[kyear2]

You didn't address accepting my ratings.

You didn't address your false claim that I said Imran was easily ahead in reverse.

You didn't address my challenge to show how he underperformed series by series.

Instead you are just mindlessly repeating yourself. Maybe you should take a break.

No idea what rating you're taking about, but to be fair I don't read all of your posts.

How he performed series by series? Is that how we do it for anyone else? Or is this just yet another exception that we have for Imran?
How many in are we?

 

[kyear2]

Yes it is. Now it's more obvious than ever.

So when you were lobbying in the all rounder rankings poll, lobbying just yesterday with regards to why Kallis shouldn't be in 2nd XI's, when you're trying to devalue his bowling and downgrade his batting and invalidate his catching, I guess that what you're doing.

Projection is a bitch isn't it.

 

[kyear2]

How does critiquing Ashwin help with Imran, if your theory is correct?

They were two separate paragraphs.

I'll leave you to HB when it comes to Ash and India. I couldn't care less.

 

[Coronis]

You reversed your position within the course of a couple sentences.

Your initial statement was, the gap between the top 10 or so specialists was so small, that one can easily just choose an Imran or Kallis based on their secondary skills.

Then in a conversation with Subz you agreed with him, that there's no need for a Kallis with Hammond around and you too would go with the better batting because there's more value there.

It was pretty straight forward.

See, this very much confused me because yes I remember posting this.

I will say this. I think we nitpick too much here due to constant comparisons. And I think generally the gaps between the top batsmen and bowlers are far smaller than anyone would think from reading posts here.

From that POV, dropping say, Tendulkar for Hammond or even Kallis, or Marshall for Imran… doesn’t sound so crazy imo.

And then I have no clue where this second flipping my opinion part comes from - because I have searched through my recent posts and can’t find any sort of reference to Kallis or Hammond, or the difference between them. You may have confused me for another poster?

Let him agree with me. Why do you feel so threatened?

 

[Migara]

Waqar and Shoaib, when they were fit, were different beasts. Even Wasim looks ordinary compared to them.

 

[subshakerz]

They were two separate paragraphs.

I'll leave you to HB when it comes to Ash and India. I couldn't care less.

In other words Ash has nothing to do with Imran or rating of other cricketers. So your theory is wrong.

 

[kyear2]

In other words Ash has nothing to do with Imran or rating of other cricketers. So your theory is wrong.

There were two separate paragraphs.

Even physically separated.

Your Imran agenda for now only extends to Kallis, Ambrose and Steyn.

Oh and denying that Imran was the ultimate recipient of unfair, or I guess from your perspective helpful home conditions.

That they had the absolute worst home umpires for a decade and allowed him to cheat to his hearts content.

 

[subshakerz]

Just want to add some context here because many posters have misconceptions on reverse.

Sarfraz Nawaz discovered reverse towards the late 70s. He shared it with Imran who was hitting his bowling peak just after a successful WSC series.

With a remodelled action perfect for inswinging and 90MPH pace, Imran introduced reverse at full mastery in the early 80s. His trademark with the old ball was to pitch it close to the stumps and unsuspecting bats never anticipated the swing. Pitching it up with the old ball like that was contrary to the practice of the time.

Nobody doubts that tampering and home umpires helped him but it is reductive to mostly attribute his success to that. Firstly, he only admitted to once using a bottletop in a first class game as a point to our what he saw as crossing the line, not that he regularly used it in tests where it was scratching and scuffing the ball on the hard surfaces. He had no need to make that admission if bottlecaps were his regular forte.

Reversing it was not just a home achievment. IMO it was not just his skill but the fact that reverse was a new phenomenon that led to that success. He used it in Australia (taking 16 wickets@19) when he famously got Chappell in trouble and carried it to England (taking 21 wickets@18) where he also successful. At the time the late reverse inswinger was called the inshoo.

Here is him using it to dislodge Chappell in a beautiful trap.

And here is Richie Benaud in England in 1982 talking about the mystery of reverse, how much trouble it caused bats and how Imran managed to do it while others could not.

By the time the 82/83 series against India came along, it was the combo of all factors, Imran at his peak, his home umpire advantages, tampering but mostly the conditions that made it easier for the ball to scuff early and Indian bats who had never seen the old ball swing.

The reason I rate Imran as the best was not just that he was the one to truly master it but he has so many spells of running through sides, home and away, with reverse at a level of destruction Wasim never managed.