Which team was better? Windies of Early 80s or the current Aussie Team?

[Swervy]

Well West Indies played in NZ only those two times in all of seventies and eighties. One was at the beginning of the eighties(1980 I think) and another one towards the end(1987) when they were already in decline. The first series was without Marshall and Viv Richards, so I wouldn't call that one the WI team that we are talking about here, and the last series was without Holding and Roberts and Marshall was also in the decline and so it was again not the team that we are discussing. We are comparing two teams at their peak.

Also India in the 80s wasn't that bad a team in test matches compared to the current one. Remember that India won its last away series out of the sub-continent in 1986. So I think the comparison is quite valid.

there is a reason why Marshall wasnt playing in the NZ series..its because at that point the other bowlers were to good..at that point Marshall was a developing fast bowler (he wasnt even overly quick then).

When would you say the WI's peak was then...in that NZ series in the second test the team was

Greenidge
Haynes
Rowe
Kallicharan
Lloyd
King
Derryk Murray
Roberts
Garner
Holding
Croft

so yeah Richards was not playing, but Rowe was a class player as well...that bowling line upis pretty much the best fast bowling quartet you will ever see.

Go on in time..to the series in Australia in about 81 (when I first really got to watch WI)

Greenidge
Haynes
Richards
Gomes
Lloyd
Dujon
david Murray
Holding
Clarke
Garner
Croft

I think that is a stronger team (apart from david Murray) (tail is quite long there)...but Australia drew that series

On another 18 months

Greenidge
haynes
Richards
Gomes
Logie
Lloyd
Dujon
Marshall
Roberts
Holding
garner

stronger batting, with Dujon keeping.Marshall was about to become world class(he wasnt yet though),and Roberts and Holding, it could be said the best days were over.Garner was still one of the very very best.Lloyd wasnt quite what he was,and a weak point in the batting for me was at 5 and 6..

you then go on with Richardson coming in, Lloyd going out,Marshall becoming the best bowler in the world,Holding and Garner and Roberts retiring,being replaced by the likes of Patterson,Baptiste then Walsh (who took quite a while to develop) and Gray...

So what team for you was the WI's at their peak???

For me, those early 80's teams are the best, when they could mix up the bowlers with marshall or Clarke coming in to replace Roberts or Croft or whatever...but the one thing they lacked was a world class spinner, if they had that, then yeah i would agrree that the WI's were better

 

[Swervy]

One thing to be noted for the eighties is that the cricket world wasn't as lopsided as now. The England team going around then was quite strong, and the Aussies were bad for a period of 3 years between 1983-1986 maybe but were a significant force for the rest of the decade.Also Pakistan and India were fairly competitive and India didn't cave in as easily then in test matches away from home as was the norm for most of the nineties.

So I would say that the quality of opposition that WI faced in its dominant cycle, was a tad better then what Australia faced during its stages of dominance.

England didnt have a really stong team for the whole of the 80's, they were the lost years, unless they were playing a generally worse Australian team (the England team that toured in 82 in Australia was shocking, despite Botham,Gower,Willis etc). India were weak in general for most of the 80's...Australia,apart from the very start of the decade were poor,NZ in the mid eighties were fairly impressive,Pakistan as the decade progressed actually started to get close to WI's talent wise....is there anyone else.

So when people say that the teams were tougher back then..i would beg to differ..and one thing is for sure, teams can play fast bowling a lot better these days than they used to in the eighties, although a lot of that is to do with the pitches

 

[aussie_beater]

there is a reason why Marshall wasnt playing in the NZ series..its because at that point the other bowlers were to good..at that point Marshall was a developing fast bowler (he wasnt even overly quick then).

When would you say the WI's peak was then...in that NZ series in the second test the team was

Greenidge
Haynes
Rowe
Kallicharan
Lloyd
King
Derryk Murray
Roberts
Garner
Holding
Croft

so yeah Richards was not playing, but Rowe was a class player as well...that bowling line upis pretty much the best fast bowling quartet you will ever see.

Yes that bowling lineup is awesome, but that batting isn't as good as -

CG Greenidge
DL Haynes
IVA Richards
HA Gomes
CH Lloyd
AL Logie/Bacchus
PJL Dujon

Richards isn't there.... its like drawing up an Aussie batting lineup of the nineties without Steve Waugh not being there.

So what team for you was the WI's at their peak???

For me, those early 80's teams are the best, when they could mix up the bowlers with marshall or Clarke coming in to replace Roberts or Croft or whatever...but the one thing they lacked was a world class spinner, if they had that, then yeah i would agrree that the WI's were better

For me the team that was going around the 82-84 timeframe would be the peak team, although anything before or after till about 1987 would be excellent too. The team that I am talking about is -

CG Greenidge
DL Haynes
IVA Richards
HA Gomes
CH Lloyd
AL Logie
PJL Dujon
Holding
Marshall
Roberts
Garner

You can replace Logie with Bacchus and still do fine on that batting lineup. This was the team that India played 11 times in 1983(both at home and away) and I can't think of any stronger team that I have seen.

 

[Swervy]

ok..so that is what you would consider a peak strength WI team (I am pretty much in a greement there, although was Richie Richardson not around then..i would have him in over Logie)

Now a peak Aussie team would be for me..and it would be interesting to see if this side has been put out, coz I cant find one scorecard from say 3 or 4 or 5 years ago like this, but this feels to me to be a definitive team that sums up the Aussies over the last few years (matched up with the WI)

Hayden Greenidge
Langer Haynes
Ponting Richards
M Waugh Gomes
S Waugh Lloyd
Martyn Logie
Gilchrist Dujon
Warne Holding
Lee marshall
Gillespie Roberts
McGrath Garner

well pretty much the opening pairs are of equal standard ie **** hot
Richards was the king, but Ponting has been in Richard-esque form in the last couple of years,and certainly by the 83 or 84 time, Richards wasnt what he had been,so at that point honours even again.
Got to have Mark Waugh over Gomes...Australia one up
Steve vs Clive..tricky one...i would give this to Waugh, Lloyd was fading as a batsman at this time
martyn vs logie...a draw, although i think i am being kind to Gus there
Gilchrist vs Dujon...as keepers honours even,although Dujon never had to keep to a Warne (or even harder in someways, the erratic McGill)..but batting wise,Gilchrist by a fair margin (although Dujon was a good bat)..3-0 Australia so far.
Warne vs Holding..how can you compare them..Holding was not as good as he had been, but was still very good.Warne in the early 2000's was not the threat he had been, but he has bounced back big time since...but the big thing here is the variety of the attack that Warne supplies,and so for me i am afraid I have to make it 4-0 Australia
Lee vs marshall...no probs..marshall 4-1
Gillespie vs Roberts: Gillespie in my mind is the best fast bowler in the world bar none (you may have a go at me for that, but i do beleive it)..Roberts was not what he had been ...he was getting on, and his best had passed a few years earlier, but when he was at his best, he was as good as anyone...gotta be 5-1 to Australia.
McGrath vs Garner: I will give this as a draw,nothing between them, both very accurate, both about the same pace,both very tall...Garner was a slightly better batsman though.

Right then...I reckon its 5 pts to Australia and 1 to WI with my system...ok..maybe 5-2 if i give Richards of 83/84 the nod over the current Ponting.

Someone else have a bash at it and see what you come up with..

To be honest, I think there is very little to choose between them apart from the WI's lack of spinner

 

[Sanz]

Hayden Greenidge - Equal (slight edge WI)
Langer Haynes - WI
Ponting Richards - WI
M Waugh Gomes - AUS
S Waugh Lloyd - AUS
Martyn Logie - Equal
Gilchrist Dujon - AUS
Warne Holding - Equal
Lee marshall - WI
Gillespie Roberts - WI
McGrath Garner - Equal (Slight Edge Aus)

On One on One - WI Win 4-3 for me

Opening Greenidge/Haynes over Hayden/Langer any day (WI 1, aus 0)
Middle Order, Richard, Lloyd, Logie, Dujon, Gomes at par with Mark Waugh, Steve Waugh, Ponting, Glichrist actually Australia do have an edge over here (WI 0, Aus 1)
Bowling - Holding, Garner, Marshal, Roberts over Lee, Mcgrath, Warnie, Gilliespie any day (WI 1, Aus 0)

WI win 2-1 .

 

[aussie_beater]

England didnt have a really stong team for the whole of the 80's, they were the lost years, unless they were playing a generally worse Australian team (the England team that toured in 82 in Australia was shocking, despite Botham,Gower,Willis etc). India were weak in general for most of the 80's...Australia,apart from the very start of the decade were poor,NZ in the mid eighties were fairly impressive,Pakistan as the decade progressed actually started to get close to WI's talent wise....is there anyone else.

So when people say that the teams were tougher back then..i would beg to differ..and one thing is for sure, teams can play fast bowling a lot better these days than they used to in the eighties, although a lot of that is to do with the pitches

India in the 80s were way better and a more gritty team then the lot that we saw in the nineties. They could come out of a 5 test series in West Indies in 1983 by losing only 2 tests. That would have been impossible for the team of the nineties to pull off. They had a very gritty batting lineup till the time Gavaskar and Mohinder Amarnath were there and a decent enough seam attack led by Kapil. They didn't have a good spinner before the advent of Maninder Singh(from 1983 onwards). And the stats say a lot....India lost only 11 % of the matches it played in the 80s while it lost over 26 % of the matches it played in the 90s.

Aus were "poor" only when Greg Chappel and Lillee left after that Pakistan series of 1983-84.Before that I wouldn't call them "poor" by any means. Then they were again very competitive from 1987 onwards after the world cup and when they won the home series against a strong NZ side. So I would say Aus were quite a force for most of the decade(don't compare them to the Aus side of the 90s) except for a period of 3-4 years in between.

Pakistan was quite a force with Imran Khan and Akram(from 1985) leading the attack with someone like Qadir to spin the web, and the batting in the hands of Zaheer Abbas(till 1985), Miandad, Malik and Imran himself. I would say they were more consistent in the 80s... they won more in the 90s but they lost more too.... they were a very talented but a "hit and miss" team in the 90s.

England were way better in the 80s then what they were in the nineties....no question about it.....with Gooch, Gower,Gatting,Lamb, Botham, Willis(till 1984).

NZ was fairly strong...they had their greatest players in the 80s.... Martin Crowe, Hadlee.

SL was just coming up... they were the whipping boys at that time although they did quite well at home just like they were in the 90s, but they were as bad away from home in the 90s as in the 80s.

Based on all that I can't see how the opposition that Aus faced in the 90s was better then the opposition that WI faced in the 80s.

 

[Swervy]

Hayden Greenidge - Equal (slight edge WI)
Langer Haynes - WI
Ponting Richards - WI
M Waugh Gomes - AUS
S Waugh Lloyd - AUS
Martyn Logie - Equal
Gilchrist Dujon - AUS
Warne Holding - Equal
Lee marshall - WI
Gillespie Roberts - WI
McGrath Garner - Equal (Slight Edge Aus)

On One on One - WI Win 4-3 for me

Opening Greenidge/Haynes over Hayden/Langer any day (WI 1, aus 0)
Middle Order, Richard, Lloyd, Logie, Dujon, Gomes at par with Mark Waugh, Steve Waugh, Ponting, Glichrist actually Australia do have an edge over here (WI 0, Aus 1)
Bowling - Holding, Garner, Marshal, Roberts over Lee, Mcgrath, Warnie, Gilliespie any day (WI 1, Aus 0)

WI win 2-1 .

Right...can I ask how you can come to the conclusion that Holding,Garner,Marshall and Roberts is so much better than Lee,McGrath,Warne and Gillespie....did you actually watch those WI's back then at all...it was pretty obvious that they werent as good in 83 or 84 as they were say a few years earlier (apart from Marshall) (even Garner had lost some effectiveness)...can you please explain why????? or are you just basing your thoughts on what you have read about these bowlers at their peak (mid 70's for Roberts,late 70's for holding,early 80's for Garner and mid to late 80's for marshall)

 

[Sanz]

India in the 80s were way better and a more gritty team then the lot that we saw in the nineties. They could come out of a 5 test series in West Indies in 1983 by losing only 2 tests. That would have been impossible for the team of the nineties to pull off. They had a very gritty batting lineup till the time Gavaskar and Mohinder Amarnath were there and a decent enough seam attack led by Kapil. They didn't have a good spinner before the advent of Maninder Singh(from 1983 onwards). And the stats say a lot....India lost only 11 % of the matches it played in the 80s while it lost over 26 % of the matches it played in the 90s.

That's not true, Indian team of late 70s and entire 80s were one of the most spineless Indian team I have ever seen. Apart from 1983 World Cup win and 1984-85 BH world series win we do not have much to feel proud about that era. We shouldn't read much about 1983 world Cup win either, I consider it a fluke because immidiately after world cup WI toured India and beat the same team in almost every game that played against them. It really made a mockery of our world cup win.

Our batting looked good on paper but it hardly performed. That team although had two of India's greatest players was marred by ego clashes and was without any leader for most part. I would consider this team under Sourav Ganguly as out best team so far and we have to give credit to this Australian team for beating us in ODIs quite comfortably althouth I wouldn't say the same about their TEST performances against us.

 

[Swervy]

India in the 80s were way better and a more gritty team then the lot that we saw in the nineties. They could come out of a 5 test series in West Indies in 1983 by losing only 2 tests. That would have been impossible for the team of the nineties to pull off. They had a very gritty batting lineup till the time Gavaskar and Mohinder Amarnath were there and a decent enough seam attack led by Kapil. They didn't have a good spinner before the advent of Maninder Singh(from 1983 onwards). And the stats say a lot....India lost only 11 % of the matches it played in the 80s while it lost over 26 % of the matches it played in the 90s.

Aus were "poor" only when Greg Chappel and Lillee left after that Pakistan series of 1983-84.Before that I wouldn't call them "poor" by any means. Then they were again very competitive from 1987 onwards after the world cup and when they won the home series against a strong NZ side. So I would say Aus were quite a force for most of the decade(don't compare them to the Aus side of the 90s) except for a period of 3-4 years in between.

Pakistan was quite a force with Imran Khan and Akram(from 1985) leading the attack with someone like Qadir to spin the web, and the batting in the hands of Zaheer Abbas(till 1985), Miandad, Malik and Imran himself. I would say they were more consistent in the 80s... they won more in the 90s but they lost more too.... they were a very talented but a "hit and miss" team in the 90s.

England were way better in the 80s then what they were in the nineties....no question about it.....with Gooch, Gower,Gatting,Lamb, Botham, Willis(till 1984).

NZ was fairly strong...they had their greatest players in the 80s.... Martin Crowe, Hadlee.

SL was just coming up... they were the whipping boys at that time although they did quite well at home just like they were in the 90s, but they were as bad away from home in the 90s as in the 80s.

Based on all that I can't see how the opposition that Aus faced in the 90s was better then the opposition that WI faced in the 80s.

well i guess different people have differnt opinions...i would consider England for most of the 90's to have been stronger than in the 80's (although things got really bad in 1999)...and forget Australia,even before Chappell, Lillee and marsh retired in 84, Australia were on the way down..and Australia only started to turn it around in about 1990 or 91 (apart from when playing the god awful England team,I remember when Australia toured England in 89, Aust were called the worst Aussie team ever to come to England..the results showed otherwise, coz the 85 team was the worst i ever saw).

India werent that good back then..they may not have lost as much but i think they didnt win as much...in fact England, who were quite average verging on poor in 84 or 85 were more than a match for India in tests.

I think really at the moment we have one outstanding team ,and a whole bunch of decent teams, back in the eighties you had one outstanding team,and maybe one other good team at any given point.

 

[Swervy]

That's not true, Indian team of late 70s and entire 80s were one of the most spineless Indian team I have ever seen. Apart from 1983 World Cup win and 1984-85 BH world series win we do not have much to feel proud about that era. We shouldn't read much about 1983 world Cup win either, I consider it a fluke because immidiately after world cup WI toured India and beat the same team in almost every game that played against them. It really made a mockery of our world cup win.

Our batting looked good on paper but it hardly performed. That team although had two of India's greatest players was marred by ego clashes and was without any leader for most part. I would consider this team under Sourav Ganguly as out best team so far and we have to give credit to this Australian team for beating us in ODIs quite comfortably althouth I wouldn't say the same about their TEST performances against us.

yeah the 80's India doesnt come close to this one, which i consider the best Indian team i have ever seen

 

[Sanz]

Right...can I ask how you can come to the conclusion that Holding,Garner,Marshall and Roberts is so much better than Lee,McGrath,Warne and Gillespie....did you actually watch those WI's back then at all...it was pretty obvious that they werent as good in 83 or 84 as they were say a few years earlier (apart from Marshall) (even Garner had lost some effectiveness)...can you please explain why????? or are you just basing your thoughts on what you have read about these bowlers at their peak (mid 70's for Roberts,late 70's for holding,early 80's for Garner and mid to late 80's for marshall)

I have to be honest here, I didn't have TV in late 1970s and early 1980s and was too young to understand cricket and my first memory of cricket is 1983 world cup. I haven't watched much of Garner, Holding & Roberts and all my opinions about them have been from the couple of 1983 World Cup games I have watched over and over again in last 20 years. Also My opinion of these two attacks is mainly based on their performance against India as I hardly remember WI performance against other teams. From whatever I have seen of Holding/Garner/Marshal/Roberts. I think even in their later years they(WI) were a formidable attack. I have watched enough of Gillespie, Warne, Mcgrath & Lee to have a pretty good opinion about them, Lee and Warnie have not had any kind of success against India even on friendly pitches , Gillespis has looked very dangerous but hasn't really taken many wickets and only aussie bowler who IMHO can be compared to any of those WI bowlers is Mcgrath.

 

[aussie_beater]

ok..so that is what you would consider a peak strength WI team (I am pretty much in a greement there, although was Richie Richardson not around then..i would have him in over Logie)

Richardson came in around the same time as Logie... he started off on that India tour of 1983. He and Logie swapped places in the team(not in the batting order..Richardson came in at three and Logie would be the number six), and later on when Lloyd retired, he and Logie both became part of the team although I fully agree that Richardson was way better then Logie as a batsman....no comparison there.

On that comparison chart, I would put my winners as -

Hayden Greenidge (almost equal....my opinion - WI)
Langer Haynes (WI)
Ponting Richards (WI)
M Waugh Gomes (Aus)
S Waugh Lloyd (Aus)
Martyn Logie (Aus)
Gilchrist Dujon (Aus)
Warne Holding (WI)
Lee marshall (WI)
Gillespie Roberts (WI)
McGrath Garner (Equal)

That's 6-4 in favour of WI for me.

 

[aussie_beater]

That's not true, Indian team of late 70s and entire 80s were one of the most spineless Indian team I have ever seen. Apart from 1983 World Cup win and 1984-85 BH world series win we do not have much to feel proud about that era. We shouldn't read much about 1983 world Cup win either, I consider it a fluke because immidiately after world cup WI toured India and beat the same team in almost every game that played against them. It really made a mockery of our world cup win.

Our batting looked good on paper but it hardly performed. That team although had two of India's greatest players was marred by ego clashes and was without any leader for most part. I would consider this team under Sourav Ganguly as out best team so far and we have to give credit to this Australian team for beating us in ODIs quite comfortably althouth I wouldn't say the same about their TEST performances against us.

I am not comparing the current Indian team(read Ganguly's team) to the team of the 80s... I am comparing the team that Azhar had for most of the 90s. That was a team, as far as test matches are concerned, which doesn't compare at all with the team of the 80s. Come on... tell me what that team of Azhar has to show for in terms of test matches in the 90s away from those "Kumble pitches".

Don't forget the last away series win(in England in 1986) was by that "spineless" team..

 

[Neil Pickup]

I am not comparing the current Indian team(read Ganguly's team) to the team of the 80s... I am comparing the team that Azhar had for most of the 90s. That was a team, as far as test matches are concerned, which doesn't compare at all with the team of the 80s. Come on... tell me what that team of Azhar has to show for in terms of test matches in the 90s away from those "Kumble pitches".

Don't forget the last away series win(in England in 1986) was by that "spineless" team..

Shows just how god-awful England were in the 1980s, doesn't it!

 

[Ford_GTHO351]

in ODIs there is no comparison. WI wins hands down.

You have got to be kidding. This Australian ODI side (since Ponting being ODI captain in 2002) is the best ever in the history of ODI's.

This side completely dominated the 2003 World Cup & were undefeated.

The West Indies in the 80's were a good ODI side and yes they did win the World Series Cricket tornaments (VB Series) here in Australia five times in the 80's. Though they never did manage to win the 1983 or 1987 World Cups.

The Australian ODI side set a new World Record for most consecutive ODI victories.

Without a doubt, this Australian side is the best ever to play ODI's.

 

[aussie_beater]

You have got to be kidding. This Australian ODI side (since Ponting being ODI captain in 2002) is the best ever in the history of ODI's.

This side completely dominated the 2003 World Cup & were undefeated.

The West Indies in the 80's were a good ODI side and yes they did win the World Series Cricket tornaments (VB Series) here in Australia five times in the 80's. Though they never did manage to win the 1983 or 1987 World Cups.

The Australian ODI side set a new World Record for most consecutive ODI victories.

Without a doubt, this Australian side is the best ever to play ODI's.

Absolutely agree to that

 

[luckyeddie]

Shows just how god-awful England were in the 1980s, doesn't it!

What would that have said about Australia of the same era?

/didn't read the whole thread, might have missed the point.

 

[Mecnun]

Aussies in ODI though the game has changed quite alot since and I would go with a draw for tests. Both superb teams in their respective eras and I think it is difficult to call because there are so many other factors involved which we cannot account for in a compariosn of this nature.

 

[Bapu Rao Swami]

I would like to read people's opinion of which was a better unit. The mighty Windies of Clive Lloyd and Viv Richards or the current Aussie team. Let the opinions begin!!!

Having taken all factors into consideration, I think the Australians (esp circa 2002-03) were stronger. The West Indians had a stronger bowling attack though, even though it was one dimensional - only pace.

 

[Bapu Rao Swami]

I have to be honest here, I didn't have TV in late 1970s and early 1980s and was too young to understand cricket and my first memory of cricket is 1983 world cup. I haven't watched much of Garner, Holding & Roberts and all my opinions about them have been from the couple of 1983 World Cup games I have watched over and over again in last 20 years. Also My opinion of these two attacks is mainly based on their performance against India as I hardly remember WI performance against other teams. From whatever I have seen of Holding/Garner/Marshal/Roberts. I think even in their later years they(WI) were a formidable attack. I have watched enough of Gillespie, Warne, Mcgrath & Lee to have a pretty good opinion about them, Lee and Warnie have not had any kind of success against India even on friendly pitches , Gillespis has looked very dangerous but hasn't really taken many wickets and only aussie bowler who IMHO can be compared to any of those WI bowlers is Mcgrath.

I think the Australians are better, certainly in ODIs I have no doubt they had or have (circa world 2003 and earlier when they recorded most consecutive wins) on two occassions.

In test cricket its hard to say, but I think the Waugh's Untouchables are better. Waughs men registered 43 wins of 51 games, Lloyds registered 43 wins of 76, Borders 43 of 92.

But seriously one thing people forget is that back in the Windies era there was no South Africa, no Sri Lanka, Australia were a bunch of disjointed men going thru their worst era, India and Pakistan were not serious in test cricket. That left only England as a strong opposition.

One factor I believe the West Indies single dimensional pace attack did not go thru was fatigue. Furthermore I think judgjing Lloyds men by their performance in the England domestic is not accurate. Take Sami, who just bagged 6 wickets there a few days ago, or Mushtaq Ahmed whose bin the leading wicket taker there, or even folks like Devon Malcolm and Gough who rocked there.

That said the Windies sure were a very strong outfit no doubt but I wonder how far their one all out pace attack could take them in the era of today...after all we did see the likes of Steve Waugh play extremely well against pace, whether it be against Ambrose or Donald and co.


Spinners today play a very important role, I feel..and Warne I think is capable of covering the gap left on the Australian side, meaning comparing Gillespie, Lee against the likes of Marshall and Holding may very well be irrelevant.