Where would you group Murali/Warne

[howitzer]

That's why you throw in Imran in the mix. Deadly on 4th innings pitches with reverse swing. That is one reason he should be among top 5 pacers all time.

So in this first post you use 4th innings as a point for Imran...

Imran haven't bowled much in 4th innings if you see it more closely. And he had to compete with Wasim and Qadir for wickets in such conditions too.

The third innings stats show what he was capable on wearing wickets. The lack of bowling in 4th innings show that his team has dominated a lot during his days. We know he was brilliant with new ball too.

Then when confronted with a reply that suggests he wasn't actually that good in your supposed positive you say didn't do it much anyway. Your thinking seems to be about as joined up as the handwriting of a chimpanzee.

 

[howitzer]

1st match innings 20.52 (27.10)
2nd match innings 29.37 (26.72)
3rd match innings 21.11 (21.31)
4th match innings 48.50 (21.63)

This is (allegedly) Imran Khan's bowling averages by innings.....



(Allegedly because it was tossed by an Imran fan trying to explain his middling Away record, saying he averaged more on 4th innings due to being tired of batting; haven't verified the no.s)

I've done some digging and 48.5 is his 4th innings average away from home. It's still 42 overall but yeah the key takeaway here is Migara thinks he's deadly in the 4th innings then when told otherwise says he didn't do it much as an excuse for his appaling take.

 

[BazBall21]

Second tier I think.

 

[ataraxia]

So what we've learnt is that Imran Khan was a bad bowler because his averages by innings don't average out well. Even if we do take this as evidence of a specific weakness in his game and not the work of the luck gods, the 4th innings is the least important innings to do bad in as everyone else does well in it – and more importantly, more often than not the match is dead by that point anyway.

 

[capt_Luffy]

So what we've learnt is that Imran Khan was a bad bowler because his averages by innings don't average out well. Even if we do take this as evidence of a specific weakness in his game and not the work of the luck gods, the 4th innings is the least important innings to do bad in as everyone else does well in it – and more importantly, more often than not the match is dead by that point anyway.

For God's sake; two very important points:

1. No one, literally no one called Imran Khan a bad bowler. Migara quoted his deadlines on 4th innings and how that makes him a top 5 pacer, I debunked that. He said that he haven't bowled much in the 4th innings, Howitzer quoted him for hypocrisy. Where did you exactly find that that somehow meant Imran to be a bad bowler?

2. Stop making goddamn excuses. Warne has bad record against India, Murali sucked in Australia, Marshall wasn't much effective for his first 5 years, McGrath struggled overseas in Sri Lanka; these are all valid criticisms. So is Imran Khan's abysmal 4th innings record. That's it. Saying 4th innings doesn't matter because everyone is good there, it was just bad luck, the match is dead by then, or as Migara said; Pakistan was so good he hardly had to bowl in the 4th innings..... These are some pure bullshit. I don't think you should scoop so low to use such shitty logic. He haven't bowled too much in 4th innings is a valid point, but as I previously said; 21 wickets in 19 innings at over 42 is just not good. Doesn't matter how much of a beast Wasim or Qadir were there. It's a genuine hole. A flaw in his record. Don't try to cover it with such bullshit.

 

[ataraxia]

For God's sake; two very important points:

1. No one, literally no one called Imran Khan a bad bowler. Migara quoted his deadlines on 4th innings and how that makes him a top 5 pacer, I debunked that. He said that he haven't bowled much in the 4th innings, Howitzer quoted him for hypocrisy. Where did you exactly find that that somehow meant Imran to be a bad bowler?

2. Stop making goddamn excuses. Warne has bad record against India, Murali sucked in Australia, Marshall wasn't much effective for his first 5 years, McGrath struggled overseas in Sri Lanka; these are all valid criticisms. So is Imran Khan's abysmal 4th innings record. That's it. Saying 4th innings doesn't matter because everyone is good there, it was just bad luck, the match is dead by then, or as Migara said; Pakistan was so good he hardly had to bowl in the 4th innings..... These are some pure bull****. I don't think you should scoop so low to use such ****ty logic. He haven't bowled too much in 4th innings is a valid point, but as I previously said; 21 wickets in 19 innings at over 42 is just not good. Doesn't matter how much of a beast Wasim or Qadir were there. It's a genuine hole. A flaw in his record. Don't try to cover it with such bull****.

The bolded are largely genuine weaknesses in a player's game that indicate tangible fallibilities. I don't think it would make Imran a better bowler if some of his success were transported from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd innings to the 4th innings.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The bolded are largely genuine weaknesses in a player's game that indicate tangible fallibilities. I don't think it would make Imran a better bowler if some of his success were transported from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd innings to the 4th innings.

I think if had taken more wickets than 21 in 19 innings at 42 avg; that would indeed had made him a more balanced bowler. As Migara implied, he by all accounts should relish in 4th innings with his reverse swing, but he doesn't. I don't think it's much different than the fact that Warne and Murali should had been successful on Indian turners.
Also, you didn't even acknowledged my first point. To begin with, I wasn't even holding it against Imran. Migara literally said that Imran's reverse swing would be deadly in 4th innings, which I just showed to be plain wrong. There was nothing more to it, I never called Imran a "bad bowler"; heck, I didn't even called him incomplete...

 

[kyear2]

So what we've learnt is that Imran Khan was a bad bowler because his averages by innings don't average out well. Even if we do take this as evidence of a specific weakness in his game and not the work of the luck gods, the 4th innings is the least important innings to do bad in as everyone else does well in it – and more importantly, more often than not the match is dead by that point anyway.

No one is calling Imran a bad or incomplete bowler, no one here ranks him outside of the top 8, far less the top 10. My issue with him doesn't even have anything to do with his 4th innings performances.

 

[howitzer]

No one is calling Imran a bad or incomplete bowler, no one here ranks him outside of the top 8, far less the top 10. My issue with him doesn't even have anything to do with his 4th innings performances.

Yeah i don't particularly have an issue with Imran's 4th innings performances. It's just when someone literally uses it as a plus side for him things become a nonsense.