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What made the mid-1980s Indian ODI team so good?

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
It's not though, considering he played 7-10 years more than them. It depends on whether you actually are looking to assess the value added by a batsman across their career in which case longevity is a paramount and multiplying variable in itself or whether you're looking at assessing player 'quality/skill level' while using a minimum longevity threshold as a qualification test.

If you are correctly doing the former, Sachin playing for 24 years is ridiculously more valuable than another great batsman playing for 15.

It depends on which batsmen are knocking the door and if said batsman adds more value. As great as he was, I think he was not needed past 2011 WC. We would have been trashed in Aus-Eng anyways and it might have helped the others sink their teeth in earlier. Same for Dravid and Laxman, actually. But that is just my opinion. I know Dravid had that lone ranger awesome series in England in 2011 but somehow felt all 3 sticking around for so long did not make it so great. Remember India's latest results in SENA going into the 2011 WC was something like win in NZ, draw in RSA, 2-1 but close due to Sydneygate in Aus and win in Eng. Good reason why they were #1 then.
 

Kirkut

International Regular
For that reason I think those early era bowling averages are like post 2016 batting averages. It's hard to know which of those guys were actually good and which of them got lucky with a new format that wasn't taken as seriously.
Yeah, 80's ODIs were more like 50 - 60 over tests. From late eighties to early 2000s were peak years for ODIs, then till 2010 it was more batting dominated and 2010 onwards slogfest.
 

Bolo.

International Vice-Captain
Is it though? Even before the 00 decade started, he averaged 74 in England, 49 in Australia , 58 in WI , 50 in NZ and 37 in SA. It's only SA where there was a "hole" if you want to call it that and he still had 2 centuries there.
And he averaged 36 in Pak, and 14 in Zim, as well as sub 40 vs the same three opponents (home and away). In 11 years. He played enough tests to correct his record.

Its a situation like ABD, who averaged less than 40 in two countries- Zim and Ban, who were basically cannon fodder for most of his career. But he played 1 and 2 tests respectively in those countries. It is easy to have a few bad games.
 

vcs

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Indian audiences (and therefore BCCI) didn't care much for Test cricket in the '90s, it was all about those random triangular money spinners in Singapore, Sharjah etc. Tendulkar's away sample sizes were quite small despite playing the entire '90s without getting dropped/injured etc.

He also started his career with a lot of tough away tours (Pakistan, SA, Australia, England) and scored centuries everywhere except Pakistan.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
IIRC, of the top of my head, Tendulkar played between 60-65 tests in the 90s and there were Australian/WI/English batsman who played 90-100.

Despite this Tendulkar scored 25 hundreds in the 90s and the second best was 16! I’ve always thought that was just absurdly dominant.

He also averaged a good 4-5 runs more than any other batsmen iirc and had an average bordering on 60 in the most bowling friendly decade of all time.
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
IIRC, of the top of my head, Tendulkar played between 60-65 tests in the 90s and there were Australian/WI/English batsman who played 90-100.

Despite this Tendulkar scored 25 hundreds in the 90s and the second best was 16! I’ve always thought that was just absurdly dominant.

He also averaged a good 4-5 runs more than any other batsmen iirc and had an average bordering on 60 in the most bowling friendly decade of all time.
22 hundreds to Steve Waugh's 18, though from 20 less tests.
 

vcs

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The thing with Tendulkar was, he was good for minimum one century every series regardless of opposition attack/how clueless the rest looked/difficulty of conditions etc. You just couldn't keep him down for extended periods, kind of like Smith post 2013. The fact that he didn't have any incredibly dominant series like Kohli/Smith/Lara can be explained by the fact that India rarely got to play 4-5 match series against top opposition in those days.
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
And he averaged 36 in Pak, and 14 in Zim, as well as sub 40 vs the same three opponents (home and away). In 11 years. He played enough tests to correct his record.

Its a situation like ABD, who averaged less than 40 in two countries- Zim and Ban, who were basically cannon fodder for most of his career. But he played 1 and 2 tests respectively in those countries. It is easy to have a few bad games.
point is - he still had a fabulous records even if he retired in 99, better than his contemporaries by a fair margin.
 

Bolo.

International Vice-Captain
He was magnificent in a tough era for sure. But I dont rank his dominace at the same level as, say, Smith. Longevity sets him aside.

Anyway, my point was not that he didnt have awesome streaks, it was that one of the factors many people (myself included) judge him on is the rounded record
 

trundler

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Anyway I'm gonna go back to the Viv discussion. I think mr x 2 is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. His record shows an exceptional degree of consistency across conditions and such. IMO what should count against him is the fact that he didn't change his game and reinvent himself with age. Once Lloyd retired, WI didn't have a very strong middle other and a slower but steadier accumulator would've been worth a lot more to the team. The greatest batsmen like Tendulkar, Hobbs and Hammond all changed their styles massively and retained their high averages across ridiculously long periods as a result. Pre-WW1 Hobbs could play Trumper's flashy game and then his scoring rate dwindled from 40 to 25-30 runs an hour later in his career. Hammond's SR went from high 50s to 30s in 2nd second half of his career. You don't average 50 without being able to defend but if the likes of Kallis and Barrington get marked down for not displaying that extra gear then Richards should be too.
 

trundler

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He was magnificent in a tough era for sure. But I dont rank his dominace at the same level as, say, Smith. Longevity sets him aside.

Anyway, my point was not that he didnt have awesome streaks, it was that one of the factors many people (myself included) judge him on is the rounded record
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/29316805/how-far-ahead-average-batsman-era-steven-smith

Yeah yeah, it's crapinfo but it does show Tendulkar was as far ahead of his peers as Smith has been.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/29316805/how-far-ahead-average-batsman-era-steven-smith

Yeah yeah, it's crapinfo but it does show Tendulkar was as far ahead of his peers as Smith has been.
Yea the mid-2000s (he pulled back very nicely for about 5-6 years after though), and very specifically post 2011-World Cup, really hurt his legacy. If he'd retired some time around 2002 I think it was he'd be considered far more godly - he was edging close to a 60s batting average, much of it from the 90s.
It's tough to maintain longevity, equally as hard as it is to truly dominate and have daddy series (which is something I think you can legitimately accuse Sachin of)

He was arguably as far ahead of Steve Waugh and Lara (the next best bats) as Smith is of Kohli right now just in pure numerical terms.
 

vcs

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Like I said earlier, if Tendulkar had a magic crystal ball and wanted to maximise his "analysis by checklist on Cricinfo profile page" posterity rating, he should have retired after the 2011 WC. Real life doesn't quite work that way though, unfortunately.
 

pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
Anyway I'm gonna go back to the Viv discussion. I think mr x 2 is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. His record shows an exceptional degree of consistency across conditions and such. IMO what should count against him is the fact that he didn't change his game and reinvent himself with age. Once Lloyd retired, WI didn't have a very strong middle other and a slower but steadier accumulator would've been worth a lot more to the team. The greatest batsmen like Tendulkar, Hobbs and Hammond all changed their styles massively and retained their high averages across ridiculously long periods as a result. Pre-WW1 Hobbs could play Trumper's flashy game and then his scoring rate dwindled from 40 to 25-30 runs an hour later in his career. Hammond's SR went from high 50s to 30s in 2nd second half of his career. You don't average 50 without being able to defend but if the likes of Kallis and Barrington get marked down for not displaying that extra gear then Richards should be too.
Viv could stonewall if he needed to, and has done it on few occasions to save his side from defeat. Couple of occasions that I recall are against Aus in Adelaide in 1988 and against Pak in Barbados early in his career. Both were match saving innings. The thing though is - Viv's side was so good, he rarely needed to perform out of his skin. I mean, in his entire career of 17 years and 121 Tests as a Test player, he was involved in only 1 losing Test series (that famous 75-76 series against Aus). That's pretty incredible for a player! There was a marked complacency - bordering on disinterest - in Viv's batting from mid-80s onward, but his side was so good that it almost never mattered. Whether Viv scored a quickfire 30 or a big 100, the chances were, more often than not, his side would win.

In his career of 180+ innings, he had to bat in the 4th innings on less than 25 occasions (and despite this he averages a decent 47 in the 4th innings compared to low-to-mid-30s 4th innings averages of Lara, Tendulkar & Steve Waugh).

Viv just wasn't the kind who would play for personal milestones. In late 80s in an interview, Gavaskar once asked Viv why he didn't chase down Gavaskar's record of 10,000+ Test runs when he could easily have. Viv's reply in his characteristic nonchalant manner was "Nah... that's not my style, maan". For a while in late 90s, Lara too went down that road of complacency, but Lara couldn't get away with it like Viv did simply because Lara's side was much weaker.

In any case, in spite of all this, it isn't like Viv had a Test average like Hooper's. He still averaged 50+, and had several successful series in different conditions. Other than more career runs scored because of more innings, the likes of Lara, Tendulkar etc. don't have a strong advantage over Viv even statistically speaking. That's why Viv still figured in the top-10 in both of DoG's straightforward formula based ratings.
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Hobbs was spoke of in similar terms at times. Not that his side was that strong, they lost to Australia a lot, but its said that he could have scored far more runs if 'he hadn't been inclined to get out shortly after reaching 100 to let someone else have a go'

It seems he also had that disinterest about him and it's probably why despite getting 200 FC centuries he only averaged bang on 50. Patsy Hendren averaged slightly higher and he played basically the same amount of FC games as Hobbs (833 to 834) but scored 30 less tons lol.

And it might also explain Hobbs only getting the one test double century. Probably didn't do his talent the full credit.
 
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h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Viv simply didn't have the will to pile it on in the matches they were winning anyways, and winning in a canter. His potential would have been truly realized playing for a weaker team.
 

trundler

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Yeah but Chanderpaul scored a 100 off 69 balls too. Every great player has the potential to do unusual things. Not having the will to pile on would be used to bring down any other player.

Hobbs averaged over 50 well into his 40s so it's a moot point in his case.
 

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