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VVS Laxman...is he really that good?

tooextracool

International Coach
Richard said:
No, that just means he's a good opener.
It doesn't mean he's best-off opening the batting.
and it also means that there are very few people capable of doing that job as well as he did, hence hes better off opening.

Richard said:
So all that ability he has is totally meaningless, then?
no it isnt because hes doing the job at the top.

Richard said:
Yes, of course they do.
Even though the two game-forms are incomparable.
so why should he not be tried as an opener in tests then?
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Richard said:
And I've said why I don't agree.
much like every other of our posts it seems?
lets just leave it at that.

Richard said:
And when have I been insane enough to suggest that Chandana is anywhere near as good as Murali? Murali is infinately more accurate.
It is just a typical suggestion of yours, showing, as I said, how wild your imagination runs sometimes.
no you said that the inclusion of murali in the wc side had barely any effect on their bowling,yet when i show you that it did you say that it was obvious.

Richard said:
nope

Richard said:
Yes, it can, because the rest can be so appalling that you don't need to hammer Chaminda or Murali..
if it was so abysmal then it wouldnt have taken as many wickets as it did and help the side reach the semi finals like it did.

Richard said:
Err, yes, I noticed that. When have I ever compared these two games?..
no you didnt but you were suggesting that vaas bowled well while akram did not.

Richard said:
No, it's not - because no-one, no matter how good, can smash decent balls all over the park regularly. Except, of course, by backing away and using the feet, none of which I remember Tendulkar doing much. He didn't need to. He just fed on the steady supply of trash deliveries.
oh you dont need to smahs them regularly, once you hit 3-4 good balls its quite likely that the bowler will automatically change his line and length or even lose his confidence. which is what happened in that match.

Richard said:
And you remember faultily - I've got the video of that match, and I watch it quite a lot.
So forgive me for being sure of the knowledge that, once again, you are stating that something happened in a way it didn't.
no i watched it clearly myself, flintoff bowled it wide.

Richard said:
Even if Razzaq had taken the catch it wouldn't change the fact that Shoaib and Waqar bowled very, very poorly and were hammered, because that happened by and large before the catch.
it would have because once a bowler takes a wicket they tend to bowl a lot better.its the confidence booster that you need. waqar and shoaib bowled ok, but with tendulkar playing the way he did forced them to bowl badly.

Richard said:
We have seen Tendulkar pull just-short-of-good-length balls for six every now and then - and when he does, it means fairly conclusively that it was a ball he could easily score off - hence a bad ball.
Just because it wouldn't be a bad ball on some other occasions is irrelevant.
how stupid is this?if a great player can make a good ball look like a bad one does that mean it should be considered a bad ball?fact is tendulkar at his best does that quite often, and the bowler cant be blamed for bowling it in the right spot.

Richard said:
Possible, but not certain.
He might have "risen to the occasion".
and the chances of him failing were far higher than the chances of him succeeding. hence the 'better off opening part'
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
tooextracool said:
and it also means that there are very few people capable of doing that job as well as he did, hence hes better off opening.
There are plenty of people capable of doing the job he can in the first 15, there are less who are capable of doing the other jobs he does excellently in the 15-40 overs, and whether or not you think he's more likely to do that job coming-off a 15-over blast, the fact is he's less likely to get the chance.
no it isnt because hes doing the job at the top.
And that means all his ability cannot make him a good middle-order player because...
so why should he not be tried as an opener in tests then?
Because I think he'd average about 35-40 which would be a comedown for a long career of a brilliant player.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
tooextracool said:
much like every other of our posts it seems?
lets just leave it at that.
Fine by me.
no you said that the inclusion of murali in the wc side had barely any effect on their bowling,yet when i show you that it did you say that it was obvious.
No, it's obvious that Murali is a better bowler than Chandana.
It's not obvious that Murali's presence made the attack in the WC2003 game a hell of a lot better than that of NWS2002.
You're wrong, nope it or not. There was no seam-movement after about the 20th over of the game, nothing to do with the ball, to do with the pitch easing and losing it's moisture.
Vaas didn't need seam-movement to get good figures in that game.
if it was so abysmal then it wouldnt have taken as many wickets as it did and help the side reach the semi finals like it did.
If you look at the stats of Nissanka, Gunaratne and the part-timers when excluding the Canada\Kenya games you'll see that none of them were especially impressive.
Sri Lanka got to the semis thanks to South Africa's underperformance and beating all the sides slightly inferior to them (the minnows, New Zealand and West Indies).
no you didnt but you were suggesting that vaas bowled well while akram did not.
So what gave you that idea?
I certainly think that Chaminda bowled better in the respective game than Wasim did in his, but where did I say as such here?
oh you dont need to smahs them regularly, once you hit 3-4 good balls its quite likely that the bowler will automatically change his line and length or even lose his confidence. which is what happened in that match.
So basically they bowled crap and kept bowling crap.
Or if the bowled well then bowled crap that does say something about them. Doesn't say much about the batsman, though.
no i watched it clearly myself, flintoff bowled it wide.
And I watch it clearly with regularity myself.
Most of the boundaries Ganguly hammered off Flintoff were perfectly decent balls that Ganugly made into bad ones by using his feet.
it would have because once a bowler takes a wicket they tend to bowl a lot better.its the confidence booster that you need. waqar and shoaib bowled ok, but with tendulkar playing the way he did forced them to bowl badly.
No-one can force you to bowl badly. If you're good enough, you'll bowl well. Waqar and Shoaib were not good enough on that day, they were both woeful and that Tendulkar scored off them was no particularly astonishing achievement.
how stupid is this?if a great player can make a good ball look like a bad one does that mean it should be considered a bad ball?fact is tendulkar at his best does that quite often, and the bowler cant be blamed for bowling it in the right spot.
He doesn't make a good ball look like a bad one - to him, balls which would to others be OK are not.
and the chances of him failing were far higher than the chances of him succeeding. hence the 'better off opening part'
And as we all know, probabilities are only probables. It's only what might or might not happen.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
Because I think he'd average about 35-40 which would be a comedown for a long career of a brilliant player.

A bit like dropping from 50 to 38 would be a comedown in ODIs?
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
No, it's obvious that Murali is a better bowler than Chandana.
It's not obvious that Murali's presence made the attack in the WC2003 game a hell of a lot better than that of NWS2002.

Oh come off it - one of the best bowlers of all time will make an attack a hell of a lot better by being in it than by not being in it.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
A bit like dropping from 50 to 38 would be a comedown in ODIs?
Yes, exactly like that, that's why he prefers opening.
But IMO it's better for the team for him to have a lower average in ODIs, whereas in Tests he would benefit them most in the position where he averages highest.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
Oh come off it - one of the best bowlers of all time will make an attack a hell of a lot better by being in it than by not being in it.
Not unless he took 3 or 4 for 30 or so.
And he took 1 for 22 off 7, reasonable, but not enough to make a massive difference. Then he got 2 for 24 off his last 3, neither the wickets nor the expensiveness meaning much as they were at the death.
So he made it a bit better, not a hell of a lot better as tooextracool was attempting to suggest.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
1-22 off 7 is a pretty effort on it's own.

It is not just the greater quality of the bowling attack, it is also the sheer fact that he's there which will affect the mindset of the opposition when batting.

They won't be thinking "we'd better get some quick runs before Chandana comes on", but they would be thinking "we'd better get some quick runs before Murali comes on"
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Why all this comparison between Murali and Chandana? It's not as if Chandana's a direct replacement who hasn't played 121 ODIs.
And believe me, there was no need to have a mindset of "we'd better get some quick runs before anyone comes on" when it came to facing Nissanka, Zoysa (sadly), Fernando and all the part-timers. They all bowled equally poor trash, in all 4 games. Well, maybe with the exception of the 1st game at The Oval - even with all the no-balls, Zoysa wasn't dreadful. Without them, he'd have been pretty good.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
I only used the name Chandana because it was late, and I didn't have time to check the name of the one he replaced.

Likely it was an even worse bowler than Chandana, thus making my point more relevant.
 

Nate

You'll Never Walk Alone
marc71178 said:
I only used the name Chandana because it was late, and I didn't have time to check the name of the one he replaced.

Likely it was an even worse bowler than Chandana, thus making my point more relevant.
*waits patiently for people crying about how dhoni the indian keeper should replace patel, karthik, etc...* (refering to the ind a vs pak a game)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
I only used the name Chandana because it was late, and I didn't have time to check the name of the one he replaced.

Likely it was an even worse bowler than Chandana, thus making my point more relevant.
Thing is, tooextracool has also used Chandana.
The bowlers in NWS2002 were: Chaminda, Nuwan, Pramodya, Dilhara Fernando, Charitha Buddhika Fernando (3 overs), Chandana, Samaraweera, Jayasuriya, Arnold. Jayawardene also bowled 2 overs.
In the World Cup game Chaminda, Nissanka, Dilhara Fernando, Murali, Jayasuriya, Aravinda and Arnold bowled.
IMO the attack for the WC2003 game was not significantly better, given that Murali made only a small difference.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Nnanden said:
*waits patiently for people crying about how dhoni the indian keeper should replace patel, karthik, etc...* (refering to the ind a vs pak a game)
How dare you have the cheek to try and keep this thread on it's title topic when it is no longer about that? :p :p :p
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
IMO the attack for the WC2003 game was not significantly better, given that Murali made only a small difference.

Any attack that replaces a pretty mediocre bowler with a world-class star is not just a small difference.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It's a big difference if that World-class star bowls a spell that makes a big influence on the match.
7 overs, 1 for 22 amongst a very, very poor attack bar one other is not going to make a massive difference, it's just going to make a slight improvement on someone else who might take, maybe, 1 for 36 off the same number of overs.
 

thierry henry

International Coach
IMO Laxman is the most overrated player going around right now. He has based his entire career around 2 series against Australia, batting on featherbeds. He is an awful player against fast bowling if the pitch has any assistance whatsoever, and his technique revolves around plonking his foot down the middle of the pitch and waving the bat, regardless of the ball's line or length.
 

Nate

You'll Never Walk Alone
thierry henry said:
IMO Laxman is the most overrated player going around right now. He has based his entire career around 2 series against Australia, batting on featherbeds. He is an awful player against fast bowling if the pitch has any assistance whatsoever, and his technique revolves around plonking his foot down the middle of the pitch and waving the bat, regardless of the ball's line or length.
BAHAHAHAHAHA... oh wait guys... i think hes bein serious!!
 

Deja moo

International Captain
He's right about the having just 2 good series thing though , is'nt he ?

Laxman hasnt done anything great vs the other teams to merit all the hype ( except for just one good innings vs Pakistan ).
 

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