*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[RMBolton]

How tall is Smith? Looks shorter than Wagner

From different observations, my guess is perhaps 5'10"-ish at the top end.

 

[straw man]

The job of the selectors, in my mind, is to watch a lot of cricket, and promote the talent on instinct as well, obviously, as numbers. To me, Nathan Smith has done enough to prove he's good enough and when you've got Southee, Boult already on the outer, Ferguson on their last legs, who's the next cabs off the rank? They promoted O'Rourke, fair enough on his Aussie A performances. Smith can't wait much longer. They left it too long with Clarkson, when we're playing so much BS T20 cricket there's never been a better time to promote guys like Smith. Genuine 3rd seamer potential who lengthens our tail - something we could do with in 50 over and Test cricket.

I don't think we overly disagree, just saying I'm not UP IN ARMS that he hasn't debuted yet, though I probably would be if he hasn't by next summer.

What makes you see him as a third seamer though? Obv new ball bowler for Otago and Wellington. Third seamer often quick, accurate, very fit and has a good bouncer - Smith definitely accurate, unsure what his bouncer is like. I'm a little leery of trying to turn someone into a third/fourth seamer, plenty of examples of NZ and other teams asking someone to bowl a shorter length for that role when they're not suited to it, and failing. E.g. early Matt Henry.

 

[Flem274*]

We're not going find another Wagner. We'll produce another Hadlee before we produce an unbreakable strike bowling workhorse, a man more dangerous in the 9th over of his spell than his first, who functions as both pacer and spinner.

We probably need to revert to either a quick **** or a big **** who bangs it in. I suspect Stead agrees in principle since he looked at Tickner and Kuggs last season.

 

[thierry henry]

Hey, I'm over the moon for Uganda. More nations the better. And I don't bemoan the pool...it's just World Cup overload. It's insane - they think they can't oversaturate the T20 market.

I mean tbf I fundamentally disagree with having the T20WC every 2 years too, but it’s not like the ICC have just decided to cram one in next year - it’s been a biennial event since it’s inception in 2007 (albeit with a couple of blips).

It just feels like we’ve had a rush of them because the 2018 event was cancelled and then 2020 was postponed to 2021 due to COVID.

Funny thing is I hardly remember NZ’s participation in the 2007, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014 or 2016 tournaments, so it didn’t seem excessive at the time? Evidently we had two tied games decided in the super over in 2012, which you think would be memorable, but I’m coming up with nothing. I wonder if it was just that I didn’t feel I had to pay attention to T20 then and now you almost have to.

 

[Athlai]

International T20 doesn't matter. The IPL is the pinnacle of the game.

I'm not even kidding. Wish we had a proper global champions league and pretty much resigned international t20 tournaments to the Olympics.

 

[Bahnz]

The problem with an international champions league is everyone plays for everyone, so a team in Australia that might win the BBL because of a few great players might be total easy beats in a champions league where those players are turning out for Chennai and Kolkata. The whole thing just becomes a farce.

 

[thierry henry]

International T20 doesn't matter. The IPL is the pinnacle of the game.

I'm not even kidding. Wish we had a proper global champions league and pretty much resigned international t20 tournaments to the Olympics

I’d be 100% happy for this to be the case. Unfortunately in NZ it feels like we’re being told we have to care about T20I whether we like it or not (or whether anyone else cares about it or not). I dunno, maybe I just remember the 2021 and 2022 tournaments for other reasons (COVID, Aussie time zone, we made the knock outs) but I’m pretty sure it’s mostly because I was made to feel like I was obliged to care.

I mean, someone must care (depending on what it means to ‘care’ in this context) otherwise it would make no financial sense to have a WC every 2 years. I definitely reckon the T20WC has (or is given) the ‘aura’ of a World Cup, albeit a lesser one. Whether or not there is any truth to my perception about this, NZC certainly seem to create a schedule around ‘preparing for the WC’ (maximising profits).

 

[Flem274*]

T20 is for consumption and entertainment. It's entire design is to provide as much of a dopamine hit as possible in 3 hours.

It isn't limited to cricket. We're seeing these predatory tactics everywhere. They'll rejig the rules to get in more free hits or something next I reckon.

International T20 doesn't matter. The IPL is the pinnacle of the game.

I'm not even kidding. Wish we had a proper global champions league and pretty much resigned international t20 tournaments to the Olympics.

I mean in interest yes, standard no. I watched a fair bit of IPL when I worked nights. It's by far the best domestic comp around, but there is still a chasm.

 

[Athlai]

The problem with an international champions league is everyone plays for everyone, so a team in Australia that might win the BBL because of a few great players might be total easy beats in a champions league where those players are turning out for Chennai and Kolkata. The whole thing just becomes a farce.

I like the farce

 

[SteveNZ]

International T20 doesn't matter. The IPL is the pinnacle of the game.

I'm not even kidding. Wish we had a proper global champions league and pretty much resigned international t20 tournaments to the Olympics.

This would be the way forward, for me. Unfortunately I still feel as if the attendance and viewership of T20Is will remain high enough to justify them now and well into the future. I guess I'm a part of the problem - if I'm home, I'll watch a 7pm T20I every time. It's my best option. I won't attend them, but I will consume them live, highlights etc, so I'm hardly doing my bit to starve them of the attention like I'd really wish to.

I still, however, don't see how they're going to build an ongoing following and deeper belonging/attachment to the team like ODI and Test cricket has always done. That dies with T20Is - no one cares about selection, averages, no one debates anything about them too deeply (even us here), there's no real heroes and villains, it's just superficial dopaministic space filler.

 

[RMBolton]

I’d be 100% happy for this to be the case. Unfortunately in NZ it feels like we’re being told we have to care about T20I whether we like it or not (or whether anyone else cares about it or not). I dunno, maybe I just remember the 2021 and 2022 tournaments for other reasons (COVID, Aussie time zone, we made the knock outs) but I’m pretty sure it’s mostly because I was made to feel like I was obliged to care.

I mean, someone must care (depending on what it means to ‘care’ in this context) otherwise it would make no financial sense to have a WC every 2 years. I definitely reckon the T20WC has (or is given) the ‘aura’ of a World Cup, albeit a lesser one. Whether or not there is any truth to my perception about this, NZC certainly seem to create a schedule around ‘preparing for the WC’ (maximising profits).

The main reason I don't grudge them is that they pay the bills. It doesn't stop me from calling the upcoming Pakistan series "unnecessary". You take out T20Is & that takes a decent whack of NZC potential income streams (though I'm not quite sure how much).

 

[BackFootPunch]

How would we all feel about doing proper franchise/club T20 competitions worldwide?

IPL is pretty clearly top of the pile, so what if the best players played IPL (and only IPL) for ~6 months of the year, plus played some internationals either side of that, with big international tournaments accommodated as required.

I reckon I'd care more about comps like the IPL, BBL etc if players just played for one team. For some reason it really annoys me looking at a profile on Cricinfo and seeing like 23 different teams listed.

 

[Flem274*]

This would be the way forward, for me. Unfortunately I still feel as if the attendance and viewership of T20Is will remain high enough to justify them now and well into the future. I guess I'm a part of the problem - if I'm home, I'll watch a 7pm T20I every time. It's my best option. I won't attend them, but I will consume them live, highlights etc, so I'm hardly doing my bit to starve them of the attention like I'd really wish to.

I still, however, don't see how they're going to build an ongoing following and deeper belonging/attachment to the team like ODI and Test cricket has always done. That dies with T20Is - no one cares about selection, averages, no one debates anything about them too deeply (even us here), there's no real heroes and villains, it's just superficial dopaministic space filler.

That'd what administrators want the game to be. It's a business first, not a sport first. As long as you're consuming more and more to make the line go up then they're doing well in their minds.

 

[NZTailender]

International T20 doesn't matter. The IPL is the pinnacle of the game.

I'm not even kidding. Wish we had a proper global champions league and pretty much resigned international t20 tournaments to the Olympics.

I was about to say, I'd rather the 2nd T20I WC in a 4 year cycle replaced by a champions league. Although it'd be hard to achieve if you play for 8 teams a year like Guptill and Neesh.

 

[Immenso]

Funny thing is I hardly remember NZ’s participation in the 2007, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014 or 2016 tournaments, so it didn’t seem excessive at the time? Evidently we had two tied games decided in the super over in 2012, which you think would be memorable, but I’m coming up with nothing. I wonder if it was just that I didn’t feel I had to pay attention to T20 then and now you almost have to.

This was a bit of a wow moment for me reading this. Made me realised I've never watch a single delivery in a T20 world cup.

Like you, 2009 to 2014 I just dismissed it.
I didn't actually follow the 2016 tournament, though but didn't watch it. I recall being excitied seeing the youngsters Santner and Sodhi dominating in Indian conditions (but that batters equally struggled). Was such a promising time to be an NZ fan, then.

The 2021 tournament, I actually deliberately left Sky sub on thinking I would watch it as was in a good time zone (presumably after having tunred on the sub on for the Tokyo Olympics). But then never actually watched a single game, I can't remember why.

I do, however, recall very well the Champions League T20 comp. Being fascinated watching Otago and ND with their upcoming players. I think NZ teams were so unnattractive they were played as the early day game, so in good time for our timezone.

 

[_Ed_]

I recall being excitied seeing the youngsters Santner and Sodhi dominating in Indian conditions (but that batters equally struggled). Was such a promising time to be an NZ fan, then.

Yeah, that was the thing with that 2016 squad. We did such a brilliant job of defending around 120-140 against India (got them all out for 79!), Australia and Bangladesh, but then the batting underperformed one time too many in the England semi-final and the bowlers couldn't bail us out that time.

I have really fond memories of that team, because I went into that tournament absolutely despising the T20 format. Good bowling is what I love watching most of all in cricket, and that team eventually convinced me that such a thing does exist and can make a difference in T20.

Their brown uniforms were pretty hideous, however.

 

[thierry henry]

Yeah I just remember rolling India in the brown uniform in 2016, but I’d completely forgotten we also beat Australia

 

[SteveNZ]

I don't think we overly disagree, just saying I'm not UP IN ARMS that he hasn't debuted yet, though I probably would be if he hasn't by next summer.

What makes you see him as a third seamer though? Obv new ball bowler for Otago and Wellington. Third seamer often quick, accurate, very fit and has a good bouncer - Smith definitely accurate, unsure what his bouncer is like. I'm a little leery of trying to turn someone into a third/fourth seamer, plenty of examples of NZ and other teams asking someone to bowl a shorter length for that role when they're not suited to it, and failing. E.g. early Matt Henry.

Yeah I was probably referring to where he'd be in the side right now. Henry and Southee are the new ball bowlers, then you're looking at Jamieson or Smith in NZ conditions. Smith could be a very good 3rd seamer. Quick enough, doesn't bowl along the deck, moves it both ways at times, good areas and I have no doubt he's fit. Dunno about his short stuff although he strikes me as aggressive enough.

He's definitely more equipped to do it than Henry was. If KJ isn't fit I'd back him in over Kuggleijn, although the merits of investing in Tickner, for him to improve then be cast on the outer a season later would be questionable

 

[Immenso]

Here is a quiz.

A hall of fame or a Hall Of Shame?

Fill in the gaps of the worst specialist batsmen v New Zeaand in test cricket history. (Minimum of 10 innings)
(Specials bats, no keeper/bats or al-rounders)

	Player	Average	Tests	Span	Nation
1st	???	11.52​	9​	2001-2010	Bangladesh
2nd	???	12.25​	6​	2014-2023	Pakistan
3rd	H Mazakadze	13.00​	5​	2005-2016	Zimbabwe
4th	???	16.71​	8​	1969-1980	West Indies
5th	J Burki	17.81​	7​	1965-1969	Pakistan
6th	???	17.83​	14​	1969-1985	Pakistan
7th	???	19.70​	6​	1973-1974	Australia
8th	I Davis	18.16​	8​	1973-1977	Australia
9th	S Carlisle	20.33​	7​	1996-2005	Zimbabwe
10th	???	20.40​	7​	1999-2002	England
11th	S Wettimuny	21.00​	5​	1983-1984	Sri Lanka
12th	M Butcher	21.58​	9​	1999-2004	England
13th	L Gomes	23.00​	7​	1985-1987	West Indies
14th	???	23.40​	5​	2014-2016	India
15th	Mohsin Khan	23.54​	6​	1979-1985	Pakistan

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Shan Masood, always been terrible against us.