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The value of ATG specialist bowlers vs bowling AR's/bowlers who can bat (picking the strongest all time XI)

subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
kyear2 said:
I've literally just posted where, after denying you ever said it. That toy need to knock down Ambrose a peg, similarly as you've been successful in knocking down Kallis and you say I shouldn't be taken seriously.

Tou say not everything you say or post is about Imran, but you think I posted a team with the sole intent of downgrading one player.

When you've made it clear that that's basically what you do.for anyone who opposes said player.

I said it just now and I'll say it again, Ambrose, Steyn, Hadlee is a better attack than inserting Imran into it.

When doing the other XI, and looking at the batting with Knott at 7, Imran made more sense at that point. It's not iron clad either way, but the official one has Imran in the 2nd.

You can accept it or not, bit let's not pretend that everything thing you post isn't with the intent of promoting one player, even if it's by knocking down others a peg.
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Blah blah. Dude you should have never admitted to have made an ATG XI with the sole purpose of excluding Imran because you don't like how others rate him. There isn't a recovery from that, sorry.
 
ataraxia

ataraxia

International Coach
kyear2 said:
Because it not.

You've literally just made it up.

That's the ultimate strawman argument.

The crazy part is that everyone here only accepts views that they agree with. The same writers and former players are otherwise referenced and accepted, until it doesn't fit into your preferred narrative. And instead of trying to understand the why, it's dismissed.

That's like cherry picking the bible to find the stuff you do right and ignoring the parts that speaks to what you wrong.

Sutcliffe wasn't that highly rated either, not in comparison to the 3Hs, Bradman or Headley.

But we see the average and we run with it.
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Okay why not, I just halved the averages of Bradman and Hobbs to make a point of the vast difference between them: what's wrong with that? Averages tend to be good estimators of how good a player is.
 
kyear2

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
ataraxia said:
Okay why not, I just halved the averages of Bradman and Hobbs to make a point of the vast difference between them: what's wrong with that? Averages tend to be good estimators of how good a player is.
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I really can't tell if you're being serious right now.

That's not how cricket works, it not how anything works tbh.
 
ataraxia

ataraxia

International Coach
kyear2 said:
I really can't tell if you're being serious right now.

That's not how cricket works, it not how anything works tbh.
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Care explain why? In tests, McGrath scores half the runs per wicket that Laker does, so he's half as good a batsman. In the same vein, Hadlee is half as good as Tendulkar. Laker and Tendulkar are actually more than twice as valuable to their team, because of their relatively higher RPIs, but it's not about that. This is a way of quantifying the 43-run-per-wicket difference between Bradman and Hobbs in mortal and easier-to-comprehend terms.
 
Coronis

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
So I want to get into this.

I think that Marshall and McGrath are the two best and greatest bowlers that not only that I've seen, but that's ever played the game. There's no argument for me beyond that, if you're the best two, you're opening the attack. The fact that they perfectly compliment each other is an added bonus, as well as the fact that McGrath is perfectly suited to go against the wind. The fact that they've been key if not the key contributors for the two dynasties of the game, and has taken part in more high profile, high pressure "championship" series than anyone else and been extremely clutch in them, and are renowned for taking high quality top order wickets makes it a no contest, again for me.

So I don't think that anyone is close to those two from the perspectives of these exercises.

Not to address your post. You said that his selection is not base don batting, but that he's close enough to...
That's saying two things.
1) you believe that if he batted like McGrath, that he's still an automatic selection for you, or at least in contention.
2) he's not as good, but not that far off.

For the majority of the forum, he's 8th, so no I don't think that for the most of us, he's still a primary option of he couldn't bat.

And for the end point, if he's not the best, but not that far off, why am I considering him.


Please tell me what is wrong with any of that.
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Ok first off. I don’t believe anybody has said it is wrong to select Marshall and McGrath or in general whoever someone thinks are the two best pacers.

You do however tell people that its wrong for Imran. This is based on your perceived rankings, and the gaps between those players. Whilst the rankings may be different and the gaps may be different for other people, as I believe multiple of those people have stated in this thread already. Similar to what you said earlier regarding you with Imran and Ambrose. That’s what’s occuring here. Do you understand?


kyear2 said:
And as I've also said repeatedly in this thread, as much as I'm being told that I'm wrong, I've literally never seen an XI that included Imran and Hadlee, it presumably doesn't exist..
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Actually, in the poll from the thread you’re referencing, there are quite a few. In fact, of the 18 Imran voters half of them also voted for Hadlee. So I’m assuming they would have both.

Specifically,

bagapath
shortpitched713
ankitj
Fuller Pilch
OverratedSanity
trundler
ataraxia
Bolo.
capt_luffy

I know I respect and rate some of these guys opinions and analysis quite highly, I believe you may also have expressed that same appreciation at some point.
 
smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
Cipher said:
Hey everyone new poster here,

Just wanted your thoughts on the difference between picking an ATG specialist bowler vs a very good bowler who can bat.
Would it not be better to have bowlers who can get you an extra 20 runs with their batting
compared to an ATG bowler who might average getting out a top 6 bat for a few runs less?

I'll give an example to highlight this:

Bowling
Curtly Ambrose gets a 55 Avg Batsman out for 38 runs (69.4% 'discount factor')
Shaun Pollock gets a 55 Avg Batsman out for 42 runs (76.6 % 'discount factor')
So Curtly on average gets them out for 4 runs cheaper.
(Discount factor based off the post by Ankitj) cricketweb.net/forum/threads/how-valuable-is-that-wicket.48524

Batting
Ambrose averages 12.40 with the bat
Pollock averages 32.31 with the bat.
So Pollock on average makes almost 20 more runs than Ambrose per innings.

Based on these numbers Curtly would need to take 5 wickets in an innings to make up this difference in runs compared to Pollock (5 x 4=20).
Assuming that the other 3/4 bowlers in the team are also of high quality, its unlikely Ambrose gets that many himself anyway.

Obviously this is a very stats nerd way of looking at things & purely based on averages but;
Based on the numbers from Ankitj's post - players who could bowl very well vs top/middle order batsman & bat themselves such as
A.Davidson (68.3%) K.Miller (73.7%), Pollock (76.6%) R.Lindwall (77.8%) may potentially provide a higher positive value of runs than some of the ATG bowlers.

Note: I didn't mention Khan or Hadlee because you could say they are ATG bowlers in their own right but you could make the case for them based on this over Marshall/Mcgrath/Ambrose as well.

Obviously you can claim that a top tier Mcgrath/Ambrose type bowler is slightly more likely to get someone out than a 2nd tier Miller/Pollock/Lindwall but is that worth a notable difference in runs scored when batting? Especially considering runs in the tail may be more decisive when the top 7 are scoring less against star studded bowling attacks.

Interested to hear your points for or against!
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This was a great post for a new poster.

I wonder if he will ever return to CW after this experience.
 
smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
Coronis said:
Ok first off. I don’t believe anybody has said it is wrong to select Marshall and McGrath or in general whoever someone thinks are the two best pacers.

You do however tell people that its wrong for Imran. This is based on your perceived rankings, and the gaps between those players. Whilst the rankings may be different and the gaps may be different for other people, as I believe multiple of those people have stated in this thread already. Similar to what you said earlier regarding you with Imran and Ambrose. That’s what’s occuring here. Do you understand?
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Are you hopeful that you will get a straight answer?
 
Coronis

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
smash84 said:
For some reason this made me laugh a lot more than it should.
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As you can see, the distinct lack of any and all response to a serious post with reasonable points and facts.

So these posts get ignored but he’ll whine and say I only post sarcastic snippets in response to him.

I wonder why I would often post those when there’s not a response to a serious post?
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Coronis said:
As you can see, the distinct lack of any and all response to a serious post with reasonable points and facts.

So these posts get ignored but he’ll whine and say I only post sarcastic snippets in response to him.

I wonder why I would often post those when there’s not a response to a serious post?
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He ignores any argument that is too inconvenient.

He deserves your complete and savage mockery and barbs because let's face it, he is not just disingenuous, he is a chicken, and is wasting our time with neverending repetition and deflection.
 
kyear2

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Coronis said:
Ok first off. I don’t believe anybody has said it is wrong to select Marshall and McGrath or in general whoever someone thinks are the two best pacers.

You do however tell people that its wrong for Imran. This is based on your perceived rankings, and the gaps between those players. Whilst the rankings may be different and the gaps may be different for other people, as I believe multiple of those people have stated in this thread already. Similar to what you said earlier regarding you with Imran and Ambrose. That’s what’s occuring here. Do you understand?




Actually, in the poll from the thread you’re referencing, there are quite a few. In fact, of the 18 Imran voters half of them also voted for Hadlee. So I’m assuming they would have both.

Specifically,

bagapath
shortpitched713
ankitj
Fuller Pilch
OverratedSanity
trundler
ataraxia
Bolo.
capt_luffy

I know I respect and rate some of these guys opinions and analysis quite highly, I believe you may also have expressed that same appreciation at some point.
Click to expand...
There are some who have intimated, even suggested that based purely on Pigeon's batting ability, he isn't viable for selection for such an XI. I just think to eliminate the best bowler from an AT World team, based purely on his batting when he's going to be coming in at no. 11, shows you're somewhat missing the plot. But that's my opinion.

I never didn't understand, I disagree. And it's not because it's Imran, there's genuine reasons as to why he's not my first choice. But that's immaterial, because he can bat. And the part that's most infuriating in this discussion. It's similar to when we were discussing the wicket keepers, and think it was Luffy who said something crazy along the lines of, even if Pant misses chances, he'll make it up with runs. That's not how it works, and under no scenario on Earth that I would ever select Pant over Knott, Healy or even Evans if I needed a keeper. This is a way less extreme scenario of that, as Imran is of course way closer in this comp. But at least discuss the merits of the bowling, rather than saying even if he doesn't perform with the ball, he'll make it up with the bat. I gave reasons as to why I prefer Wasim over him, that wasn't even referenced. Its a dumbed down discussion with the most idiotic trope of everyone has to bat.

And to be clear, I didn't expect everyone to agree, but the confidence and ridicule of the vocal minority on this is honestly surprising, considering that, that's what they are.

When I reference that there's literally no teams in existence that includes both Imran and Hadlee, I mean outside of CW. Teams from former players, historians, writers, pundits... Teams that are based on watching and playing against said players, factoring in nuance and a finer understanding of the game, and not reducing it to what looks better on a spread sheet. How is it that in all the XI's that we've seen, listed, critiqued and laughed at, that they've never made any together. Though to be fair, I think I've ever only seen Hadlee in two, though Imran makes a bit more.

This is but one example.

Martin Crowe played on the same team as Hadlee, and still rates Marshall, Lillee and Wasim ahead of him. I've never read anyone include him in the actual GOAT debate or make the argument for it.

There's plenty of players that were never rated by the pundits, but especially by the players during their career, but we'll after they are elevated. Sunny is one, Hadlee another, so were Sutcliffe and Barrington. Those are the things I also look at, including how or where they took their wickets or scored their runs, the impact they made etc etc.

Anyways I've already given enough reason for you to make remarks about the length of the response and enough fodder for others to do their thing.
 
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