The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Lillian Thomson]

Botham was as quick as he'd ever been in the 1985 Ashes and was leading wicket taker.

 

[bagapath]

//It is not unreasonable to select Sydney Barnes over Bill O’Reilly as they were similar bowlers in many respects //

Barnes regularly took the new ball; 45 times out of 50 innings.
O'Reilly came in at no 3 or no 4; in 37 innings out of 48 times.

Both could be selected in any all time XI. They were absolute guns.
Barnes could be dropped in favor of another new great ball bowler like McGrath or Hadlee; Tiger could be replaced by another genius spinner like Warne.

But one could not be substituted for the other. Barnes was not a spinner. O'Reilly was not a new ball bowler.

Steve Waugh and BS Chandrasekar were not similar bowlers.
Barnes and O'Reilly, who probably clocked their speeds respectively, were not similar either.

 

[jayjay]

It is not unreasonable to select Sydney Barnes over Bill O’Reilly as they were similar bowlers in many respects and equal ATGs.

Charlie Blythe was greatly admired in his time and is undoubtably one of England’s greatest left-arm spinners. If Verity is greater than Blythe then it’s not by much.

Vogler was good but the team really needs a spearhead like Larwood, McDonald, Richardson or Jones.

BTW Here’s Ted McDonald in action. Looks fabulous.

Great video!

And I was about to reply the same and saw your post, so no point. O'Reilly was good but that member simply posting wisden as an argument is nonsensical.

All these bowlers were comparable to one another.

 

[jayjay]

So, here's my post 1975 test/ODI cross format XI.

This imagines if a team was picked, to tour all conditions and to play both formats. Selection is dependent on:
25 or more tests
50 or more ODIs

1. G. Smith c
2. S. Tendulkar
3. R. Ponting
4. V. Kohli
5. AB. de Villiers
6. A. Gilchrist wk
7. I. Khan ao
8. D. Vettori ao
9. W. Akram ao
10. M. Muralitharan
11. G. McGrath

Smith isn't the greatest opener but he is one of the best captains the game has ever had. Tendulkar, Ponting, Kohli and AB are cement for cross format batting. Gilly and Khan absolute aces and then Vettori who is immensely underrated in tests and although not asg ood in ODIs, 300 odd wickets is not to be scoffed at with a few handy ODI knocks too.

 

[ma1978]

Jadeja over Vettori

Warne over Jadeja

 

[trundler]

Jadeja over Vettori

You'd either have an inadequate ODI or test spinner if you picked one of those two. I don't think you really need 2 spinners but if you want that, I'd go Shakib and bolster the batting. Also, Viv is the first player picked. Not sure I'd have Smith largely for his captaincy when there's Imran there anyway.

 

[harsh.ag]

So, here's my post 1975 test/ODI cross format XI.

This imagines if a team was picked, to tour all conditions and to play both formats. Selection is dependent on:
25 or more tests
50 or more ODIs

1. G. Smith c
2. S. Tendulkar
3. R. Ponting
4. V. Kohli
5. AB. de Villiers
6. A. Gilchrist wk
7. I. Khan ao
8. D. Vettori ao
9. W. Akram ao
10. M. Muralitharan
11. G. McGrath

Smith isn't the greatest opener but he is one of the best captains the game has ever had. Tendulkar, Ponting, Kohli and AB are cement for cross format batting. Gilly and Khan absolute aces and then Vettori who is immensely underrated in tests and although not asg ood in ODIs, 300 odd wickets is not to be scoffed at with a few handy ODI knocks too.

Are you trying to bait people by leaving out Viv?

 

[ImpatientLime]

my god the list of superior spinners to Vettori that meet this criteria....

 

[Fuller Pilch]

So, here's my post 1975 test/ODI cross format XI.

This imagines if a team was picked, to tour all conditions and to play both formats. Selection is dependent on:
25 or more tests
50 or more ODIs

1. G. Smith c
2. S. Tendulkar
3. R. Ponting
4. V. Kohli
5. AB. de Villiers
6. A. Gilchrist wk
7. I. Khan ao
8. D. Vettori ao
9. W. Akram ao
10. M. Muralitharan
11. G. McGrath

Smith isn't the greatest opener but he is one of the best captains the game has ever had. Tendulkar, Ponting, Kohli and AB are cement for cross format batting. Gilly and Khan absolute aces and then Vettori who is immensely underrated in tests and although not asg ood in ODIs, 300 odd wickets is not to be scoffed at with a few handy ODI knocks too.

I'm a Kiwi, but can't agree with Vettori. Very good ODI bowler (but many spinners were better), but an average test match bowler (lots more spinners were/are better) Why not pick Warne or a fast bowler such as Hadlee?

 

[kyear2]

Peak Botham when he bowled with real pace was an ATG bowler for sure, so….

01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Ken Barrington
04. Peter May *
05. Walter Hammond
06. Tony Greig
07. Ian Botham
08. Alan Knott +
09. John Snow
10. Fred Trueman
11. SF Barnes
12th. James Anderson

Barnes is the spinner on day 5.
Snow for the Away Tests and Anderson for the Home Tests

In this scenario he's batting at 7, and as one of the primary bowlers, which is not the same as batting Miller in the top 6 and as the 5th bowler.

In this scenario it works.

 

[Bitmap]

So, here's my post 1975 test/ODI cross format XI.

This imagines if a team was picked, to tour all conditions and to play both formats. Selection is dependent on:
25 or more tests
50 or more ODIs

1. G. Smith c
2. S. Tendulkar
3. R. Ponting
4. V. Kohli
5. AB. de Villiers
6. A. Gilchrist wk
7. I. Khan ao
8. D. Vettori ao
9. W. Akram ao
10. M. Muralitharan
11. G. McGrath

Smith isn't the greatest opener but he is one of the best captains the game has ever had. Tendulkar, Ponting, Kohli and AB are cement for cross format batting. Gilly and Khan absolute aces and then Vettori who is immensely underrated in tests and although not asg ood in ODIs, 300 odd wickets is not to be scoffed at with a few handy ODI knocks too.

Under such criterion, I'd probably go with:

Gordon Greenidge
Virender Sehwag
Vivian Richards(C)
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Shakib Al Hasan
Adam Gilchrist+
Richard Hadlee
Wasim Akram
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath

Lara just edges out Ponting and ABD IMO

 

[HookShot]

Barnes regularly took the new ball; 45 times out of 50 innings.
O'Reilly came in at no 3 or no 4; in 37 innings out of 48 times.

Both could be selected in any all time XI. They were absolute guns.
Barnes could be dropped in favor of another new great ball bowler like McGrath or Hadlee; Tiger could be replaced by another genius spinner like Warne.

But one could not be substituted for the other. Barnes was not a spinner. O'Reilly was not a new ball bowler.

Steve Waugh and BS Chandrasekar were not similar bowlers.
Barnes and O'Reilly, who probably clocked their speeds respectively, were not similar either.

”From all accounts they were similar in style. Barnes was faster, but he didn’t have the googly (wrong’un),“ Bradman noted. “They we’re both aggressive and could deliver perhaps the hardest of all deliveries to keep out - the very quick leg-break. O’Reilly was relentless and unforgiving if you managed to strike him to the boundary. Reports suggest Barnes was in some ways similar in character.

He may have had more variety in his deliveries than O’Reilly. Barnes bowled fast off-breaks, out-swingers and inswingers. Like O’Reilly, he would have been more than a handful for the best batsman of any era”

‘Bradman’s Best Ashes Teams’ page 425-26.

 

[ImpatientLime]

In this scenario he's batting at 7, and as one of the primary bowlers, which is not the same as batting Miller in the top 6 and as the 5th bowler.

In this scenario it works.

especially with Greig at 6. never seen an England atg xi like that but really love the balance with Greig and Botham at 6 and 7.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Peak Botham when he bowled with real pace was an ATG bowler for sure, so….

01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Ken Barrington
04. Peter May *
05. Walter Hammond
06. Tony Greig
07. Ian Botham
08. Alan Knott +
09. John Snow
10. Fred Trueman
11. SF Barnes
12th. James Anderson

Barnes is the spinner on day 5.
Snow for the Away Tests and Anderson for the Home Tests

I'd pick Root instead of Greig. Much better bat, spin option, and with Wally Hammond in the side, Greig's bowling isn't needed.

 

[Starfighter]

”From all accounts they were similar in style. Barnes was faster, but he didn’t have the googly (wrong’un),“ Bradman noted. “They we’re both aggressive and could deliver perhaps the hardest of all deliveries to keep out - the very quick leg-break. O’Reilly was relentless and unforgiving if you managed to strike him to the boundary. Reports suggest Barnes was in some ways similar in character.

He may have had more variety in his deliveries than O’Reilly. Barnes bowled fast off-breaks, out-swingers and inswingers. Like O’Reilly, he would have been more than a handful for the best batsman of any era”

‘Bradman’s Best Ashes Teams’ page 425-26.

Do I have to explain Barnes' style to you again? He and O'Reilly are not comparable bowlers and Bradman never saw Barnes play. He was the same speed or faster than Bedser and Tate, both of whom were far faster than O'Reilly.

@bagapath's comparison is pretty good.

 

[kyear2]

Do I have to explain Barnes' style to you again? He and O'Reilly are not comparable bowlers and Bradman never saw Barnes play. He was the same speed or faster than Bedser and Tate, both of whom were far faster than O'Reilly.

@bagapath's comparison is pretty good.

But again, we never saw Barnes bowl either,not in his prime at least. And what I did see (admittedly as an older man) his action and movements were that of a spinner

 

[HookShot]

Do I have to explain Barnes' style to you again? He and O'Reilly are not comparable bowlers and Bradman never saw Barnes play. He was the same speed or faster than Bedser and Tate, both of whom were far faster than O'Reilly.

@bagapath's comparison is pretty good.

By his own admission Barnes liked to vary his speed. So at the beginning of the innings he was similar to Bedser, and afterwards he was similar to O’Reilly depending on the pitch and conditions.

Yes he could bowl at pace because of his tall up-right action (unlike O’Reilly), but he could bowl like a spinner when he wanted to.

We are looking at one of history’s most adaptable and skilful bowlers.

 

[kyear2]

But Bradman would have known Clem Hill et al. Bradman is just repeating


By his own admission Barnes liked to vary his speed. So at the beginning of the innings he was similar to Bedser, and afterwards he was similar to O’Reilly depending on the pitch and conditions.

Yes he could bowl at pace because of his tall up-right action (unlike O’Reilly), but he could bowl like a spinner when he wanted to.

We are looking at one of history’s most adaptable and skilful bowlers.

Or arcane methods of a bygone era.

 

[bagapath]

But Bradman would have known Clem Hill et al. Bradman is just repeating


By his own admission Barnes liked to vary his speed. So at the beginning of the innings he was similar to Bedser, and afterwards he was similar to O’Reilly depending on the pitch and conditions.

Yes he could bowl at pace because of his tall up-right action (unlike O’Reilly), but he could bowl like a spinner when he wanted to.

We are looking at one of history’s most adaptable and skilful bowlers.

Agree with all of that.

But they were not similar. One bowled wrist spin (O'Reilly). The other one (Barnes) used the seam to produce swing or cutters. They were not interchangeable.

 

[bagapath]

So, here's my post 1975 test/ODI cross format XI.

This imagines if a team was picked, to tour all conditions and to play both formats. Selection is dependent on:
25 or more tests
50 or more ODIs

1. G. Smith c
2. S. Tendulkar
3. R. Ponting
4. V. Kohli
5. AB. de Villiers
6. A. Gilchrist wk
7. I. Khan ao
8. D. Vettori ao
9. W. Akram ao
10. M. Muralitharan
11. G. McGrath

Smith isn't the greatest opener but he is one of the best captains the game has ever had. Tendulkar, Ponting, Kohli and AB are cement for cross format batting. Gilly and Khan absolute aces and then Vettori who is immensely underrated in tests and although not asg ood in ODIs, 300 odd wickets is not to be scoffed at with a few handy ODI knocks too.

If I were to create one team for tests and ODIs without changing the batting order that would be...

Matthew Hayden
Gordon Greenidge
Viv Richards
Virat Kohli
AB De Villiers
Imran Khan *
MS Dhoni +
Richard Hadlee
Wasim Akram
Muralitharan
Glen McGrath

In the 14: . Ricky Ponting. Kapil Dev. Joel Garner.