The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[trundler]

I don't disagree. Was just playing Devil's Advocate. Read CW's XI and they placed Trumper at 4 which was very interesting.

 

[trundler]

An aspect of all time XIs which amuses me the most is imagining Jack Hobbs and Shane Warne share a dressing room...
The master might not appreciate Warney's ***capades while he's at church.

 

[Engle]

I think the most important factor that should be considered when picking an all-time XI is picking the best players (and the best balance) who performed in adverse circumstances and not the ones with the best stats i.e players who 'rose to the occasion' or relished a great challenge should be rated more highly in this case than say more consistent but less dominant on the big state type of players. That makes Hobbs and Hutton a certainty. Bradman played the greatest innings of all time, that 270. Viv gets in based on his WC final century (an ODI, yes but it should count because of all the pressure). The #4 spot becomes more and more contentious then. Sachin has all the aggregates and a fine technique but thinking of the toughness of the level we're talking about, the difference between him and Lara, Greg Chappell and others becomes less eminent, especially considering they were superior fielders. The idea of having Vic Trumper in the middle order seems attracting too. So my question is this, should Sachin be a certainty at 4 in your opinion like the preceding 3 are? Why or why not?

Partnerships work best when batsmen complement each other, rather than mirror each other.
An ideal partner for Bradman would be someone who is any one or more of being left-handed, tall, a six-hitter. Candidates for this would be Sobers, Lara, G.Pollock, V.Richards.
What would I give to see Bradman and Sobers on song - the perfect partnership. I imagine Sobers would lift his game. Bradman always played to the best of his ability.

 

[vcs]

I think many reasonable arguments and selections can be made over Sachin in a Test ATG side, but there's no way he can be excluded from any ODI side.

 

[Prince EWS]

I think many reasonable arguments and selections can be made over Sachin in a Test ATG side, but there's no way he can be excluded from any ODI side.

Haha yeah it's sort of the litmus test for Tendulkar critics as to whether someone has a coherent cricket philosophy that Tendulkar's Test game just didn't fit into, or if they're just a biased contrarian who didn't like the fact that he was overhyped.

 

[akilana]

Well ya know, Sachin averaged 55 over 39 matches against Australia throughout his career, so possibly not the best player to make that argument against.

What’s his average when McWarne were part of the Aussie attack?

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I think many reasonable arguments and selections can be made over Sachin in a Test ATG side, but there's no way he can be excluded from any ODI side.

Tendulkar made mine with Amla, but if someone wants an opening combo Watson/Gilly/Jayasuriya/de Kock for things besides just team batting, such as additional bowling or wicket keeping, Tendulkar is in jeopardy.

 

[Coronis]

What’s his average when McWarne were part of the Aussie attack?

53 in tests involving either of them, 42 in tests involving both (2 centuries over 7 matches).

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I would prefer to pick Lara based on cricket as a spectator sport, but you can't argue with the fact that Sachin is the most adaptable batsman in the history of the game.

His average against any opponent OR in any conditions never dipped below 40.

He averaged 55 against McGrath/Warne all thru their prime, and managed 53 against them IN Australia.

Who doesn't average big in Australia, though?

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

You may call me a troll, call me contrarian, or whatever, but I really do not understand the obsession with making runs IN Australia.

Tendulkar is about the 73rd (I may have gotten the precise number wrong - I am short sighted) highest average in Australia. Hardly the stuff that defines him as the batsman that he is. Sure I value it more than runs in Zimbabwe, or 1980's Sri Lanka, but in more modern times, I think we have to accept that Aussie pitches have put out some mammoth scores regularly, for visitors and hosts both.

You know visiting spinners averaged 48 in Australia between 2000 and 2010.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/486576.html

Warne in that time 29.51
Macgill in that time 30.34

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...al1=span;team=2;template=results;type=bowling

If a batsman handles fast bounce, what else is on offer in Australia in modern times, since say covered pitches?

Plus I am pretty sure Tendulkar had a famous "breakthrough" series in Australia against a debutante Warne. Taking nothing away from either. But Ravi Shastri made a double century against Warne iirc.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...dia-3rd-test-india-tour-of-australia-1991-92/

How would you feel if some Bangladeshi fans said, nah - Steve Smith hasn't made runs IN Bangladesh so I won't rate him?

 

[Red]

I dont think you're a troll or a contrarian at all. It's not really about Australia, it's about McGrath/Warne.

If you average 53 playing against (arguably) the best quick of all time and/or (arguably) the best spinner of all time, in their home country, it's worth noting.

Although I may have been corrected in that it drops a bit when BOTH have played against him, but yeh, my point was he was very good against clear ATG opponents.

 

[Red]

Once again, the thing with Sachin is his consistency. No one really troubled him, and he made runs anywhere and everywhere against anyone.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I dont think you're a troll or a contrarian at all. It's not really about Australia, it's about McGrath/Warne.

If you average 53 playing against (arguably) the best quick of all time and/or (arguably) the best spinner of all time, in their home country, it's worth noting.

Although I may have been corrected in that it drops a bit when BOTH have played against him, but yeh, my point was he was very good against clear ATG opponents.

Warne averages better away from Australia than at home in career.

Warne averaged well below his average in Australia at the start of his career (which Tendulkar benefited from big time), and from 2000 on.

He was only a special force at home for a short time, from 1992/93 when he demo'd the Windies (but they certainly got pay back) to 1999.

He remained special overseas of course bar India and West Indies say.

But I accept and further like the manner of your reply. So I will stop. I get where you're coming from. While I think Warne is overstated at home vs Tendulkar, you may not.

And while I still think you overstate the IN Australia, and you may not, I think you're being reasonable from your own coherent framework of Warne/McGrath and Aussie peak power. Which is all that really matters.

Carry on Red Hill, don't mind me

 

[Red]

Yeh, as I said, it's not about being IN Australia, it's about facing a couple of full legit ATGs in their home environment.

I'd say the same if it was Marshall and Garner in the WIs or Wasim and Waqar in Pakistan that he was facing, same deal.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Yeh, as I said, it's not about being IN Australia, it's about facing a couple of full legit ATGs in their home environment.

I'd say the same if it was Marshall and Garner in the WIs or Wasim and Waqar in Pakistan that he was facing, same deal.

All good. Wasim and Waqar were probably worse terrors in NZ than Pakistan* :P

Marshall and Garner may have had more fun in Eng than WI :P

(*Younis 2001 to NZ excluded)

 

[TheJediBrah]

Who doesn't average big in Australia, though?

A lot of people actually, especially visitors. When the Aus team has been full of low-to-mid-20s averaging bowlers, which it was during most of Tendulkar's career, then clearly a lot of visiting batsmen are having hard times on tour. Cbf getting the stats up but if there isn't plenty more specialist batsmen averaging sub-30 than those averaging 55+ in that time then I'll eat my hat

edit: I'll add that is hasn't really been since post-Tendulkar that the "Aussie road" really started kicking into gear here. Pre-2012 most Australian Test wickets were actually quite good Test-match wickets that offered a bit for the quicks and broke up on days 4 and 5.

 

[trundler]

Sachin makes both my ODI and Test XIs though. I mean, Benaud and Bradman including him in their XIs and he's not even Australian or English!

 

[Mr Miyagi]

A lot of people actually, especially visitors. When the Aus team has been full of low-to-mid-20s averaging bowlers, which it was during most of Tendulkar's career, then clearly a lot of visiting batsmen are having hard times on tour. Cbf getting the stats up but if there isn't plenty more specialist batsmen averaging sub-30 than those averaging 55+ in that time then I'll eat my hat

Dude, I gave you the url to every single batsmen who has ever batted in Australia already. It was right below below the sentence you quoted. Literally (as in really).

Here I will post it again.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...batting_average;template=results;type=batting

All 1329 of them.

Please do me the respect of reading my posts in full (and previous) before replying to me. I seriously think it will prevent some if not many of your miscommunications with my posts.

 

[trundler]

Lara has a terrible average in Australia bar Adelaide which is a slow pitch. The bouncy tracks like Perth and MCG make his average dip to 26-27 ish.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Lara has a terrible average in Australia bar Adelaide which is a slow pitch. The bouncy tracks like Perth and MCG make his average dip to 26-27 ish.

Well you know what Martin Crowe said about death, taxes and runs in Adelaide

 

[TheJediBrah]

Dude, I gave you the url to every single batsmen who has ever batted in Australia already. Tt was right below below the sentence you quoted. Literally (as in really).

Here I will post it again.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Please do me the respect of reading my posts in full (and previous) before replying to me. I seriously think it will prevent some if not many of our miscommunications.

wtf?

It was just a comment, if you disagree with it that's fine just tell me why. Just don't do this **** again