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Test XI for The Last Quarter Century

Mr Miyagi

Banned
Before you too get stuck in another endless loop, Miyagi is saying the average of specialist batmen is increasing, not the team batting average. This is correct.

Miyagi, you are doing two things wrong here. Firstly you are bringing this up through disagreeing with a post of mine that that is talking about the team batting average, not the average of the specialists. You are wrong to say I'm incorrect, because you are changing the topic of discussion, not disputing my point. And secondly you are not communicating clearly that you are doing so. State what you mean in as many words. You can't shift the topic of conversation without mentioning that you are doing so and expect people to follow you.
No - team batting average is increasing while bowling average stays the same unless Starfighter is superbly trolling us all.

I presume top order batsmen averages are increasing too. They certainly are for a ton of current batsmen.
 
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TheJediBrah

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Yes, we established that:

Dude I'm pretty sure that's mathematically impossible. Bowling averages and batting averages can't vary separately, unless 1) run outs, or 2) wides & no balls change significantly.

The only way batting averages could theoretically increase significantly while bowling averages stay the same would be if either:
- The rate of run outs dropped massively, or
- The rate of no-balls and wides dropped massively
 

TheJediBrah

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Before you too get stuck in another endless loop, Miyagi is saying the average of specialist batmen is increasing, not the team batting average. This is correct.

Miyagi, you are doing two things wrong here. Firstly you are bringing this up through disagreeing with a post of mine that that is talking about the team batting average, not the average of the specialists. You are wrong to say I'm incorrect, because you are changing the topic of discussion, not disputing my point. And secondly you are not communicating clearly that you are doing so. State what you mean in as many words. You can't shift the topic of conversation without mentioning that you are doing so and expect people to follow you.
It's almost as if he's deliberately using poor wording to get people to call him out, so he can come back and say "no I actually meant xxxxxxx, you shouldn't question me"
 

Bolo

State Captain
No - team batting average is increasing while bowling average stays the same unless Starfighter is superbly trolling us all.

I presume top order batsmen averages are increasing too. They certainly are for a ton of current batsmen.
No - team batting average is increasing while bowling average stays the same unless Starfighter is superbly trolling us all.

I presume top order batsmen averages are increasing too. They certainly are for a ton of current batsmen.
In this case you are wrong only once, but you are wrong spectacularly. I'll defer to tjbs extremely easy to follow explanations
 

Burgey

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What I want the forum to be is irrelevant.

I just believe -very strongly- that if you are going to assert something that you be the one who brings evidence to the table, or you shut up when called out on it. I feel that is basic manners when engaging with someone.

What you do is have other forumers who are as nice as Starfighter go run around and crunch the data for you, or you demand they go open a new thread for you to then engage their questions ('if so inclined'). People here aren't your stats monkeys, nor are your opinions so worth the effort of us jumping through your hoops to help you justify them.

I just very strongly do not like when people are all huster and bluster and won't put in the work to justify what they're saying, and yet will argue it to the death. Regardless of if they're right or wrong. It's just really rubs me the wrong way.
I’ve repeatedly asserted you’re a ****, although I have ample evidence to back me up.
 

Mr Miyagi

Banned
In this case you are wrong only once, but you are wrong spectacularly. I'll defer to tjbs extremely easy to follow explanations
Read his table.

Batting average is going up much higher than the bowling average which is more or less constant.

So unless you want to call Starfighter a troll...
 
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Daemon

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I am so not sure on this. I wouldn't be at all surprised if batting averages are increasing, while bowling averages stay the same and E/R gets worse, which means SR of batsmen is increasing.

Records | One-Day Internationals | Batting records | Highest career batting average | ESPNcricinfo

Half the top career average batsmen played THIS YEAR already. Half.
I don't think that's mathematically possible, unless you think there has been a significant reduction in the number of run outs.
Run outs have icnreased.

HALF the career highest average batsmen have played this year.

It is possible and I explained it.

Records | One-Day Internationals | Batting records | Highest career batting average | ESPNcricinfo
Miyagi, you thought that batting averages can increase and bowling averages stay the same while run outs increase. That's obviously incorrect and next to impossible mathematically.

Now that you know the reason that can happen is the run outs, you're saying you couldn't care less about them?

Yes it's true that batting averages has increased at a slightly faster rate than bowling averages. But your logic behind that assertion was all wrong. You were then shown that through Starfighters table and now you're just shouting I was right at the top of your lungs when everyone chipped in to show you that you were only partially right.
 

Mr Miyagi

Banned
Miyagi, you thought that batting averages can increase and bowling averages stay the same while run outs increase. That's obviously incorrect and next to impossible mathematically.
Heya, you have no balls, wides, run outs, to factor in here too.

I think that the top order split is bigger too with bowlers taking more wickets.

Now that you know the reason that can happen is the run outs, you're saying you couldn't care less about them?
Yes. Never could. I made my observation before anyone discussed run outs. (I didn't appreciate that runs out were so high to begin with to be honest and said as much to starfighter - I thought they would be far lower in dismissal count. I don't know everything. Never said that I do.)

Run outs is apparent here, and they do increase ever so slightly in the 1990's since the third umpire as I thought they would have. But teams have obviously adjusted.

Yes it's true that batting averages has increased at a slightly faster rate than bowling averages. But your logic behind that assertion was all wrong. You were then shown that through Starfighters table and now you're just shouting I was right at the top of your lungs when everyone chipped in to show you that you were only partially right.
I am very very happy with being partially right which is being wholly right about the part I cared about. It was my observation before anyone chipped in.

Perhaps you want me to be less happy? But I am happy about this. I thank Starfighter for putting a smile on my face. :)
 
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vcs

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I think ODIs are just formulaic by nature. The problem doesn't lie in the formats, or rules, or bats or whatever - it's just what happens when you have an extremely professionalized sport with lots of money at stake. No one is going to be creative at the risk of losing. Everyone is just going to stick to the script so they don't get lambasted when they try a new approach and lose.

I honestly find ODIs to be exciting based on how closely fought the game is, independent of the runs being scored. The difference between 200 vs 200 and 350 vs 350 is simply that the bar has been shifted on what an 'acceptable' outcome is off one delivery. A single in the 350 vs 350 is as good as a dot ball in 200 vs 200. I just adjust my expectations accordingly and still enjoy the game.

The issue I used to have is that the bar for 'good' bowling has gotten so high - for a bowler to dominate a batting lineup, they can't just be a talented guy who bowls in good areas. Now you have to be a freak. Freakish pace, weird action, freakish amounts of spin. Something like that. And that's just so hard to find. Meanwhile the bar for a 'good' batsman has gotten lower, to the point we aren't really impressed by someone smashing a matchwinning 100 off 70 balls anymore. We're only impressed by consistency over the course of a series, season, year, or by showing up in a pressure scenario.

But I don't have that issue anymore - it seems that bowlers are learning how to be clever. Before if you got a wicket by someone slogging you to the deep, you kinda feel cheap. You didn't beat the batsman, didn't bowl a ball too good for him, you just got smacked and happen to have a fielder underneath it. Got lucky. But modern bowlers don't think that way anymore. They celebrate those wickets like their own. They have elaborate plans, tricks, subtle variations - they want batsmen to hit them to the fielder in the deep. Bats have gotten better, but so have fielders, and boundary catching today is at a whole new level. Bowlers are taking advantage of this.

So I think we just need to adjust our expectation of what good bowling is. A curving outswinger taking off a batsman's off stump is ***y as hell, but in today's cricket that is on par to a off cutter that gets mistimed to deep midwicket in terms of 'good' bowling. I think we're going to see a lot of inncouous looking spinners and seamers start to dominate in the years to come, and they'll rarely take aesthetically appealing wickets, and there will be a learning curve to start to appreciate these guys for the skill they really have, that isn't as obvious to the naked eye.
The conditions have just got more and more in favour of the batsmen so the bowlers have to resort to percentage bowling and getting wickets off back of the hand slower balls, cutters etc. The new ball barely moves an inch and they've also got rid of the reverse swing element with the two-ball strategy. If you put them on a spicy pitch, bowlers will still take plenty of "***y" wickets (like Sri Lanka when they had India 25/8 or whatever last year).
 

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