South Africa team selection

[SeamUp]

Nothing wrong with this...

Sky should David Gower back.

 

[SeamUp]

I've never really got the hate of him. Maybe I don't listen enough but he has a very good voice on the mic and is more than knowledgeable enough not to embarrass himself.

Same. I'm not the most picky person when it comes to commentators.

Manjrekar and Ganguly irritated me the most. Otherwise Mike Haysman since he came back was irritating me but has improved lately. Think the cash from Texas guy in West Indies league got to his head for a bit.

Nicholas has almost everything you want from a good commentator like you say. Good voice and good knowledge old and new.

 

[Dendarii]

Not meeting the target means the government can officially do things like strip CSA of sport association status. Prevent CSA from applying for WC etc. And the consequential monies. However the likelihood of this occurring is very low, unless an absolute disregard for transformation was done. Even the target % is largely self imposed. Rugby gave themselves a 50 % quota. Cricket gave themselves a higher % with greater restrictions.

That's what made me wonder how seriously it was taken. If they're doing well in every other facet of transformation then isn't constantly going on about the make-up of the national side a bit of a distraction? Granted, it's mainly one person who's consistently bringing it up, but it isn't only her. That's not to say that transformation shouldn't be ignored as the reality is that there's a past legacy which needs to be addressed, but who gets picked for the test side is not the most important part of it.

 

[Dendarii]

I've never really got the hate of him. Maybe I don't listen enough but he has a very good voice on the mic and is more than knowledgeable enough not to embarrass himself.

Maybe it comes from him being the one who took over from Richie Benaud. Following him was going to be a hard task regardless, but being a plummy Englishmen wouldn't have helped. We don't get to experience him in the same context, so perhaps we have a better appreciation of him because of that.

 

[StephenZA]

I would rather be asking guys like Nicholas and Gower to commentate in SA, that bring in Haysman and Pietersen.

 

[SeamUp]

I would rather be asking guys like Nicholas and Gower to commentate in SA, that bring in Haysman and Pietersen.

How could I forget him. That laugh. wow

 

[StephenZA]

That's what made me wonder how seriously it was taken. If they're doing well in every other facet of transformation then isn't constantly going on about the make-up of the national side a bit of a distraction? Granted, it's mainly one person who's consistently bringing it up, but it isn't only her. That's not to say that transformation shouldn't be ignored as the reality is that there's a past legacy which needs to be addressed, but who gets picked for the test side is not the most important part of it.

You talking politics and click-bait. Hence the disproportionate response from the media when compared with behaviour towards other sports.

 

[Dendarii]

I agree. That is my frustration. People look at rugby and feel it is doing a better job that cricket. But I feel that cricket has tried a lot harder than rugby in transformation, but gets less credit. I still think there is fundamental problems in both in maximising talent. What I don't understand is why cricket gets lambasted all the time when really it has done a better job to try be more inclusive than most other sports in the country, on a smaller budget under greater pressure.

It may have something to do with the national teams, since they're the most visible part of the sport. Rugby has improved in that regard as there are more non-white players being selected on a consistent basis, whereas cricket is still more or less the same it has been for the past few years. And while in rugby the non-white players are still mostly backs there are a notable number of forwards, in contrast to cricket where it's still mostly the bowlers and not that many non-white batsmen making it to the highest level. So the perception as to which sport is doing better could largely be driven by evaluating what's happening at the highest level rather than the lower ones.

 

[SeamUp]

Nice interview with Dupavillon on his experience : https://www.iol.co.za/sport/cricket...h-africa-was-very-special-dupavillon-44506561

 

[honestbharani]

I don't understand. The ODIs Vs India were always slated to happen. They did the T20I and Test leg earlier and coming back for the ODI leg now. I don't think its some kind of deal Graeme Smith brokered with Sourav.

 

[SeamUp]

I agree. That is my frustration. People look at rugby and feel it is doing a better job that cricket. But I feel that cricket has tried a lot harder than rugby in transformation, but gets less credit. I still think there is fundamental problems in both in maximising talent. What I don't understand is why cricket gets lambasted all the time when really it has done a better job to try be more inclusive than most other sports in the country, on a smaller budget under greater pressure.

I'm more into football than rugby and I am amazed how backwards our football has gone. Our academies are just not producing anything. Ajax Cape Town was for a bit but even they have gone quiet.

SA's richest man, Johann Rupert, is funding the sunshine tour and amateur /junior SA golf and it is going to start paying dividends in the years to come to hopefully continue our successful golfing tradition on the world stage. You seeing 19,20,21 year-olds doing well on the European Tour and climbing the world rankings at younger ages than perhaps Oosthuizen, Schwartzel, Grace & Sterne did.

For me it highlights quite a few things. What are the people in charge of football in SA doing despite the countries largest population being football lovers ? Even numbers doesn't guarantee talent coming to the top if good structures aren't in place.

Rupert is showing investment is required but only with with good smart investment and good structures will excellence be achieved.

 

[MrPrez]

I'm more into football than rugby and I am amazed how backwards our football has gone. Our academies are just not producing anything. Ajax Cape Town was for a bit but even they have gone quiet.

SA's richest man, Johann Rupert, is funding the sunshine tour and amateur /junior SA golf and it is going to start paying dividends in the years to come to hopefully continue our successful golfing tradition on the world stage. You seeing 19,20,21 year-olds doing well on the European Tour and climbing the world rankings at younger ages than perhaps Oosthuizen, Schwartzel, Grace & Sterne did.

For me it highlights quite a few things. What are the people in charge of football in SA doing despite the countries largest population being football lovers ? Even numbers doesn't guarantee talent coming to the top if good structures aren't in place.

Rupert is showing investment is required but only with with good smart investment and good structures will excellence be achieved.

It's tough to compare football - where most professional players are coming from the townships with limited resources - and golf, which is a rich person's sport.

I don't think Rupert's investment means very much in the context of these youngsters you mention - they probably have rich parents who paid for them to travel around the world. I had one such classmate who was out the class more than he was in it as he was consistently playing overseas in Junior competitions.

Developing young township talents into proper footballers is a much steeper task.

 

[MrPrez]

I maintain that with the right investment, South African football could be the African version of Brazil.

So much raw talent here in Africa - and the nature of the township way of life means that people are a lot more obsessed and immersed in the sport than those in developed countries.

It's pretty evident that Africa should be a dominant force in football in numerous instances -

- The African-born players who end up playing for France
- The absolute gems that come out of this continent when they get opportunities to join European teams at a young age
- The ridiculous passion for the sport that could result in consistent and massive crowds - making it a financially sustainable sport.

 

[MrPrez]

Oh, and I'd argue that one of the biggest inhibitors to SA football progress is the refusal of affluent schools to offer football as a sport.

I know a lot of people involved in schools and education and basically these schools are unwilling to offer football as they know it would seriously hurt the rugby projects - and, as we all know, rugby strength is a massive draw for boys schools - often more so than the education itself.

If football was widely offered as a sport it would be extremely popular and would allow for opportunities like scholarships for talented players from poor home backgrounds.

 

[SeamUp]

It's tough to compare football - where most professional players are coming from the townships with limited resources - and golf, which is a rich person's sport.

I don't think Rupert's investment means very much in the context of these youngsters you mention - they probably have rich parents who paid for them to travel around the world. I had one such classmate who was out the class more than he was in it as he was consistently playing overseas in Junior competitions.

Developing young township talents into proper footballers is a much steeper task.

What I am seeing is even in a sport where the Black population doesn't need large financial investment in football there are struggles because the structures aren't in place and the money is being used incorrectly. Other African countries are producing footballers for top European teams but we aren't. Ever since we had won the Afcon in 1996 with that great team we have gone backwards.

Golf. "A rich man's sport" was not really kicking on SA. The structures weren't modern enough and it needed more investment to reach our true potential. We now have young talent matching and mixing it with the best in the world at teenage level which we struggled to allow them to do because of a lack of finances and structures. We trying to compete here with USA , England and the rest of the world.

They even got tournaments to promote non-whites who aren't good enough to play on pro-ams and sunshine your yet. No stone is being left un-turned and that is because the money is there and there is a driven purpose of excellence. People running the operation to make SA golf the best.

Let us not forget Retief Goosen was from Pietersburg, Charl Schwartzel from Vereeniging, Louis Oosthuizen from Albertinia. Not exactly the major areas of South Africa but they got to the top.

 

[MrPrez]

What I am seeing is even in a sport where the Black population doesn't need large financial investment in football there are struggles because the structures aren't in place and the money is being used incorrectly. Other African countries are producing footballers for top European teams but we aren't. Ever since we had won the Afcon in 1996 with that great team we have gone backwards.

Golf. "A rich man's sport" was not really kicking on SA. The structures weren't modern enough and it needed more investment to reach our true potential. We now have young talent matching and mixing it with the best in the world at teenage level which we struggled to allow them to do because of a lack of finances and structures. We trying to compete here with USA , England and the rest of the world.

They even got tournaments to promote non-whites who aren't good enough to play on pro-ams and sunshine your yet. No stone is being left un-turned and that is because the money is there and there is a driven purpose of excellence. People running the operation to make SA golf the best.

Let us not forget Retief Goosen was from Pietersburg, Charl Schwartzel from Vereeniging, Louis Oosthuizen from Alberton. Not exactly the major areas of South Africa but they got to the top.

By what metric?

We've got guys like van Rooyen, Bezuidenhout, Harding, Frittelli, Coetzee, Stone, Burmester and Lombard all doing decently on tour. None of them may be winning Major's like your Oosthuizens and Schwartzels, but I don't think that can be put down to grassroots as much as just having an x-factor.

The youngsters coming through look great by all means but many of the names I mentioned were the same - it's difficult to pick who will step into the "next class" of player and very little of that is down to grassroots resources at this point.

I think we may now have more players on the EU and US tours, for example, than we did in the 00's.

You're probably right in the whole grassroots development and I'm not slating the potential benefits of Rupert's investment but I maintain that the top white players would have likely come through in equal measures without it. And that's primarily due to it being a solo sport.

I agree on the football stuff though. I think we are also hurt by not being in northern Africa, where being closer the Europe means many players make the move to European nations.

But we should be able to do more than we are currently given we have a precedent of developing good sports infrastructure (see Rugby, Cricket [yes we complain but compare to other African nations' sports infrastructure].

 

[StephenZA]

It would be understated to say I’m not a big football fan. But speaking to those who know and play the sport in SA, apparently scouting is a big issue. With talented players who aren’t at the right clubs not getting selected. Partly due to politics within the sport, nepotism and also due to literal bribery and corruption.

So it is less of a development issue, but more of the club game having a rotten core and not selecting the right players who eventually get lost.

It is almost the exact opposite problem in cricket where if you get into the cricketing structures, and show talent, you are looked after pretty well. It is just getting the kids to play cricket across the country from diverse backgrounds.

 

[SeamUp]

By what metric?

We've got guys like van Rooyen, Bezuidenhout, Harding, Frittelli, Coetzee, Stone, Burmester and Lombard all doing decently on tour. None of them may be winning Major's like your Oosthuizens and Schwartzels, but I don't think that can be put down to grassroots as much as just having an x-factor.

The youngsters coming through look great by all means but many of the names I mentioned were the same - it's difficult to pick who will step into the "next class" of player and very little of that is down to grassroots resources at this point.

I think we may now have more players on the EU and US tours, for example, than we did in the 00's.

You're probably right in the whole grassroots development and I'm not slating the potential benefits of Rupert's investment but I maintain that the top white players would have likely come through in equal measures without it. And that's primarily due to it being a solo sport.

I agree on the football stuff though. I think we are also hurt by not being in northern Africa, where being closer the Europe means many players make the move to European nations.

But we should be able to do more than we are currently given we have a precedent of developing good sports infrastructure (see Rugby, Cricket [yes we complain but compare to other African nations' sports infrastructure].

Just my opinion. Stone , Bezuidenhout , Porteous and Lombard are the first group from the modern shake-up of amateur/junior golf in SA.

Not only were we winning majors and competing regularly in them with the well-known names guys like Tim Clarke , Rory Sabbatini, Trevor Immelman etc were getting into the top 10/20 in the world.

The new guys on the block : https://www.sport24.co.za/Golf/Suns...-schaper-ready-to-chase-more-records-20200112

https://www.amateurgolf.com/golf-to...under--Jarvis-takes-South-African-Stroke-Play

Garrick Higgo is 20 and rookie of the year on Sunshine Tour and already in the top 200 in the world.

Even someone like Wilco Nienaber who isn't in these 3's category has been playing on the European Tour on invitations and is climbing the rankings - Now about 500. He should be more on the European Challenge Tour to qualify but they keep inviting him to these events.

They are on completely different ends of the spectrum. But what I am trying to highlight is that SA golf has never rested on it's laurels and with Rupert's smart investment are looking to push excellence boundaries some of our other sports could learn from. I mean Safa and CSA have been getting 100s of millions (if not more) to try improve situations.

But we probably should return to the cricket for this thread

 

[Dendarii]

I don't follow the sport at all, so I can't comment on what the challenges are, but from an outsider's perspective, it seems ridiculous to me that South Africa isn't a better football nation. While I wouldn't necessarily expect us to compete with the wealthier European nations, I don't see why we shouldn't be the best team in Africa. That's the case in pretty much every other sport I can think of, so we have the raw ability and resources and it's just a matter of making use of them. Which I realise might be easier said than done...

 

[StephenZA]

But we probably should return to the cricket for this thread

Nah us SA can say what ever we want here... not like anybody else reads it, based on the questions in the tour threads! Whats up with stage 4!!