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South Africa team selection

MrPrez

International Debutant
I do know what you mean. His T20 performances were pretty good but he didn't have the chance to contribute in the 50-over games as an opener.

I think they in a tough situation right now. With Reeza Hendricks failing and Bavuma proving better and more consistent he is the only batsman of colour in the limited overs batting group right now.

It leads me to this. If Rassie is to make it to the next WC I only want him at 3 and now they will have Faf/Smuts in India so the only place for Bavuma is to open. I think he was batting 3 when Reeza opened v England ?

And then ou have the youth like J.Malan, Roelofsen, de Zorzi, Rickelton, Breetzke, Qeshile, Hamza who have limited overs franchise 100s behind their name and will come into the mix down the line. I would say only de Zorzi , Breetzke and Qeshile could bat outside the top 3 if it happened.
True, but Hamza really should be there ahead of him, for example.

We're surely fulfilling quotas by having Ngidi, Rabada, Maharaj, Phelukwayo all in the mix anyway?

Ftr I'm not completely against giving Bavuma a go in ODIs either; just found it weird that he's considered a lock for no apparent reason.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
True, but Hamza really should be there ahead of him, for example.

We're surely fulfilling quotas by having Ngidi, Rabada, Maharaj, Phelukwayo all in the mix anyway?

Ftr I'm not completely against giving Bavuma a go in ODIs either; just found it weird that he's considered a lock for no apparent reason.
I know you weren't. I think they probably committed themselves to giving him first go. It was probably projected the wrong way by Boucher or maybe he wanted to for Temba's confidence.
 

Dendarii

International Debutant
It leads me to this. If Rassie is to make it to the next WC I only want him at 3 and now they will have Faf/Smuts in India so the only place for Bavuma is to open. I think he was batting 3 when Reeza opened v England ?
He was, and he batted at 3 in the first ODI against Australia with Malan opening. So it does make the notion of Bavuma being a shoe-in as an ODI opener a bit puzzling.

And then ou have the youth like J.Malan, Roelofsen, de Zorzi, Rickelton, Breetzke, Qeshile, Hamza who have limited overs franchise 100s behind their name and will come into the mix down the line for top order spots. I would say only de Zorzi , Breetzke and Qeshile could bat outside the top 3 if it happened. That is not even mentioning Markram.
It's a problem we've had for a long time. We've just got too many batsmen best suited for the top order. So the question really does need to be asked as to why we're not developing those middle order players.
 

Dendarii

International Debutant
We're surely fulfilling quotas by having Ngidi, Rabada, Maharaj, Phelukwayo all in the mix anyway?
That's only four, so not enough. And they're all bowlers, which isn't the most helpful state of affairs when it comes to getting the numbers right.
 

Dendarii

International Debutant
What are the quota requirements? Thought it was 4.
Six non-white, of which two need to be black African.

But I don't know how seriously the quota for the national team is actually taken. For the past few seasons they've fallen short, yet the government keeps giving cricket's transformation efforts the seal of approval. Which doesn't mean that the make-up of he team shouldn't be ignored, but perhaps it's less important than it's made out to be given everything else that's being done at a lower level.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Six non-white, of which two need to be black African.

But I don't know how seriously the quota for the national team is actually taken. For the past few seasons they've fallen short, yet the government keeps giving cricket's transformation efforts the seal of approval. Which doesn't mean that the make-up of he team shouldn't be ignored, but perhaps it's less important than it's made out to be given everything else that's being done at a lower level.
It is taken seriously, but it is also a target.

What frustrates me is how people talk about how rugby is all great, even though you have a 50 % target in the squad. A sport with more exposure and more money, that has also allowed for greater work being done at a grassroots/school level. Amazes how perception is everything.

One of crickets fundamental issues, is the fact that a disproportionate number of cricketers (regardless of colour) come from an elite selection of schools. Not unique to SA, but exacerbates a problem when the country is so economically divided.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
It is taken seriously, but it is also a target.

What frustrates me is how people talk about how rugby is all great, even though you have a 50 % target in the squad. A sport with more exposure and more money, that has also allowed for greater work being done at a grassroots/school level. Amazes how perception is everything.

One of crickets fundamental issues, is the fact that a disproportionate number of cricketers (regardless of colour) come from an elite selection of schools. Not unique to SA, but exacerbates a problem when the country is so economically divided.
Rugby is different. 15 players start and if one player makes a mistake then another is there to back him up. Then there are substitutes so besides the money the opportunities are there in the sport. Far more than cricket. You look at the schools represented for rugby and there aren't as wide a variety as you think.

These are our academies and more and more non-whites are going to them. That to me is a positive that sporting bodies can try to keep working on.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
He was, and he batted at 3 in the first ODI against Australia with Malan opening. So it does make the notion of Bavuma being a shoe-in as an ODI opener a bit puzzling.



It's a problem we've had for a long time. We've just got too many batsmen best suited for the top order. So the question really does need to be asked as to why we're not developing those middle order players.
It is a tough issue. You want batsman to play innings of substance but the cameos at 5/6 are so crucial. We had for so long with guys like Cronje/Rhodes who were said to be limited for test cricket but still averaged mid 30s against arguably the best bowling generation depth wise. ODI cricket was their game though.

Do you think Verreynne could bat 5 ?

The pressure at the moment is on Klaasen, Miller, Phehlukwayo and maybe now Linde for 5/6/7

I think it will get to a stage where maybe to fit all the young guys in, then guys will have to adapt. It is so risky to tell how good they are too. Take Lubbe/Potgieter - they look like they can come in and are capable of smashing it but can they take it to the next level where more good balls are bowled. A guy like Jason Smith is said to be that type but SR is around 70. Galiem doesn't have a MODC 50 yet for example. It is a tough gig. I think Makwetu definitely has potential for the role. Still needs to score his first MODC 50 though.
 
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Dendarii

International Debutant
It is taken seriously, but it is also a target.
It being a target is what I'm not entirely clear about. What happens if they don't happen to meet the target? While there would obviously be problems if they were to pick an all-white team, so far there seem to have been no repercussions for not quite reaching it.
 
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StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Rugby is different. 15 players start and if one player makes a mistake then another is there to back him up. Then there are substitutes so besides the money the opportunities are there in the sport. Far more than cricket. You look at the schools represented for rugby and there aren't as wide a variety as you think.

These are our academies and more and more non-whites are going to them. That to me is a positive that sporting bodies can try to keep working on.
I agree. That is my frustration. People look at rugby and feel it is doing a better job that cricket. But I feel that cricket has tried a lot harder than rugby in transformation, but gets less credit. I still think there is fundamental problems in both in maximising talent. What I don't understand is why cricket gets lambasted all the time when really it has done a better job to try be more inclusive than most other sports in the country, on a smaller budget under greater pressure.
 

MrPrez

International Debutant
Verreyne absolutely feels like a 5 to me. I've long envisioned a 3/4/5 of Hamza, van Tonder, Verreyne. Each seems to fit the respective role.

Another guy I saw as a 5/6 was Qeshile, although recent form makes one wonder if he's truly international quality in the long term.

Between them and Mulder, we probably have the guys that will bat in those middle-order slots.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
It being a target is what I'm not entirely clear about. What happens if they don't happen to meet the target? While there would obviously be problems if they were to pick an all-white team, so far there seem to have been no repercussions for not quite reaching it.
Not meeting the target means the government can officially do things like strip CSA of sport association status. Prevent CSA from applying for WC etc. And the consequential monies. However the likelihood of this occurring is very low, unless an absolute disregard for transformation was done. Even the target % is largely self imposed. Rugby gave themselves a 50 % quota. Cricket gave themselves a higher % with greater restrictions.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/28876112/south-africa-put-doom-gloom-2019-them

If I was an investor I wouldn't hesitate because South African cricket is a stock worth watching, and, long term, it might both surprise and reward. Of course, if the team is dusted up in the three one-day games they have rushed off to play in India, these words might appear flimsy, but big-picture wise, the result of this three-match series is irrelevant. It's about the money. South African cricket is cash-strapped, so Smith got on the blower to a few mates, Sourav Ganguly among them. A whistle-stop, one-day visit to India resulted. Bravo Sourav, president of the BCCI, for helping out, and bravo Graeme for thinking outside the box.
Did not realise this!
 

SeamUp

International Coach
I honestly didn't know it was happening until a few weeks back.

Anyone who doubted Smith being director of cricket as the shrewdest decision SA Cricket had made in long time will make them eat their words.

Now to bring the "Excellence" he said had been missing in SA cricket. It would always take a bit of time. But I like the fact they will be working in the HPC in the winter etc
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Mark Nicholas is a posh so-and-so but I still love listening to him and reading his work. Passion for cricket is undoubted and outside his beloved England he seems to have a deep passion for Australian and South African cricket too.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Mark Nicholas is a posh so-and-so but I still love listening to him and reading his work. Passion for cricket is undoubted and outside his beloved England he seems to have a deep passion for Australian and South African cricket too.
Nothing wrong with this...
 

MrPrez

International Debutant
Mark Nicholas is a posh so-and-so but I still love listening to him and reading his work. Passion for cricket is undoubted and outside his beloved England he seems to have a deep passion for Australian and South African cricket too.
I've never really got the hate of him. Maybe I don't listen enough but he has a very good voice on the mic and is more than knowledgeable enough not to embarrass himself.
 

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