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South Africa team selection

Bahseph

State Captain
We are going to feel Morne's absence more than anything when it comes to his durability. We simply can't play Dale in a four man attack. I don't care how fit he feels, the injury record just isn't good. Gotta get that fifth bowler in. Philander can bat at 7 against certain opponents, but I'd like Mulder in there. And it will obviously lengthen Philanders career.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
We are going to feel Morne's absence more than anything when it comes to his durability. We simply can't play Dale in a four man attack. I don't care how fit he feels, the injury record just isn't good. Gotta get that fifth bowler in. Philander can bat at 7 against certain opponents, but I'd like Mulder in there. And it will obviously lengthen Philanders career.
When forming attacks having durable long-spell bowlers is often forgotten. Being able to look after KG, Steyn & Vern will have to be considered like you say. Won't be easy.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Limited Overs Cricket with the world cup a year away. We probably not closer to knowing our squad. This past summer probably left more questions than answers.

If anything we've added Klaasen, Jonker, Dala as potential options.
Does Markram get in and where ?
Need good opening batting partnerships : Amla & QdK..
Miller & Duminy...
Morkel is out
Behardien seems to be drifitng
Tahir is a concern (wasn't too good again in first IPL game last night) - we need Shamsi to show more (just grab moments by the scruff of the neck)
Morris/Phehlukwayo...
 
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SeamUp

International Coach
Markram is too good a player. Need to find a spot for him.
I do think Klaasen is the the perfect reserve if he isn't in the top 6 by the world cup. Can cover top-order, middle-order and keeping.

Does that put Markram's spot in jeopardy if he isn't in the XI ? His talents do deserve another chance without the captaincy.
 

Stefan9

International Debutant
Does duminy and Miller deserve their spots above markram & klaasen?

For me markram is definite in the squad.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
I would open with Markram and QDK, Amla at 3. 4-6, DeVillers, Faf, Klaasens/Duminy, Morris, Phehlukwayo, Rabada, Steyn/Ngidi, Tahir/Shamsi + Mulder gives squad of 15.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Basically just Miller, Behardien, Jonker, Maharaj, Dala missing from the above ? So we talking 20 players in the reckoning.

I wouldn't be against the above Stephen. I do have concerns with Amla 3 & Faf 5 (positioning in a middle order crucial. Is there enough power in there).
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Basically just Miller, Behardien, Jonker, Maharaj, Dala missing from the above ? So we talking 20 players in the reckoning.

I wouldn't be against the above Stephen. I do have concerns with Amla 3 & Faf 5 (positioning in a middle order crucial. Is there enough power in there).
I think that Markram, QDK, DeVillers and Klaasens give power in top 6, with Morris and Andile giving a bit of extra hitting. With Amla, Faf primary anchors. Ajob which ABdV and Markram can also do. I am a believer in game situation determining who comes in next... if we 25 overs in and lose first wicket then I expect deVillers to come in, in first 15 overs then Amla. Faf has shown he has enough of a power game to bat 5, but if we lose 2 quick wickets in first ten then faf could come in at 4. QDK's and Klaasens primary job being to give impetus to the innings. I believe in giving players roles and making sure that they get in to fulfill those roles as often as possible, rather than stick to a ridgid batting line-up.

As for those that you mention Miller, Behardien still have chances for me, but they need to start performing consistently. Their positions in my opinion are better fulfilled by Klaasen at this stage. I'm not a fan (unfairly) of Jonker I consider him a one trick pony. Dala still in with a shot. but like Ngidi more. I don't think we need Mahraja for a WC in Eng 2 spinners enough and I want him as our test spinner.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Amla is just too suited to opening for me. He's so good in the 1st powerplay at picking the gaps, scoring quickly and taking zero risks while doing it. Once the powerplay is over he keeps the scoreboard ticking well enough because he has his eye in. Once the slog overs come as long as we have wickets in hand I'm never sad to see him get out. Once Amla can't hack it as an opener anymore I don't see a place for him in the side, but that time hasn't come yet.

I can see Markham replacing Amla at the top and doing a similar job long term, and I think he deserves a shot at the team short term, but I'd rather see either him or qdk bat lower than Amla. They both have the power generation to bat anywhere that Amla doesn't.

I'd probably try Markham at 3 for now.

In other news, there are serious quota concerns in the ODI side and picking players like Klaasen and Markham is going to be tough.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Amla is just too suited to opening for me. He's so good in the 1st powerplay at picking the gaps, scoring quickly and taking zero risks while doing it. Once the powerplay is over he keeps the scoreboard ticking well enough because he has his eye in. Once the slog overs come as long as we have wickets in hand I'm never sad to see him get out. Once Amla can't hack it as an opener anymore I don't see a place for him in the side, but that time hasn't come yet.

I can see Markham replacing Amla at the top and doing a similar job long term, and I think he deserves a shot at the team short term, but I'd rather see either him or qdk bat lower than Amla. They both have the power generation to bat anywhere that Amla doesn't.

I'd probably try Markham at 3 for now.

In other news, there are serious quota concerns in the ODI side and picking players like Klaasen and Markham is going to be tough.
I would like Markram to open because he is aggressive, and 2 aggressive opening players can give a great quick start (not that Amla has done badly but he is also not the player he was)... if we lose one early Amla still gets a chance to bat power-play and hold the innings together. If the openers maintain their wickets, then ABdV comes in. I`m not against Amla opening and Markram at 3, but this again goes to my point what are you looking for from each player. I want Markram to play an aggressive role and Amla to play a stabilizing role. You don't need stabilization until you start losing wickets. If Amla gets out as an opener and Markram comes in then he has to become a more stabilizing player, rather than an aggressive batsmen I think he should play as.... I want clearly defined roles for the players with a semi-flexible line up. I think a big problem with SA batting is the wrong players playing the wrong roles at the wrong times. eg. QDK should in general, not be having to stabilize an innings, he should be playing freely.

I think quotas are alright, if not great... may give opportunity to Duminy over Klaasens.
 
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Bolo

State Captain
I would like Markram to open because he is aggressive, and 2 aggressive opening players can give a great quick start (not that Amla has done badly but he is also not the player he was)... if we lose one early Amla still gets a chance to bat power-play and hold the innings together. If the openers maintain their wickets, then ABdV comes in. I`m not against Amla opening and Markram at 3, but this again goes to my point what are you looking for from each player. I want Markram to play an aggressive role and Amla to play a stabilizing role. You don't need stabilization until you start losing wickets. If Amla gets out as an opener and Markram comes in then he has to become a more stabilizing player, rather than an aggressive batsmen I think he should play as.... I want clearly defined roles for the players with a semi-flexible line up. I think a big problem with SA batting is the wrong players playing the wrong roles at the wrong times. eg. QDK should in general, not be having to stabilize an innings, he should be playing freely.

I think quotas are alright, if not great... may give opportunity to Duminy over Klaasens.
I follow the logic, but I think Amla is too much of a niche player to go with it. With him opening, he provides quick scoring and stability at the start and stability in the middle. Drop him down the order and you just get stability. Career wise I think he probably scores quicker in than qdk in the power play- similar strikerates, but qdk accelerates and Amla doesn't. He's fading a bit, but I'd rather see him open until he retires.

Markham seems like a naturally quickscoring bat. I feel like he'd play the same type of innings whether we were 0 or 1 down.

Quotas- Andile, Hash, Rabada, Duminy, spinner, Ngidi. Hit the quota numbers if we play all of these, but only Hash, Rabada and spinner are sure spots for now. If the black bowlers don't come right it's going to end up limiting opportunities for new white bats. This said, with WC coming up, there's probably going to be a lot of chopping and changing, so everyone who deserves a look should get one.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
I follow the logic, but I think Amla is too much of a niche player to go with it. With him opening, he provides quick scoring and stability at the start and stability in the middle. Drop him down the order and you just get stability. Career wise I think he probably scores quicker in than qdk in the power play- similar strikerates, but qdk accelerates and Amla doesn't. He's fading a bit, but I'd rather see him open until he retires.

Markham seems like a naturally quickscoring bat. I feel like he'd play the same type of innings whether we were 0 or 1 down.

Quotas- Andile, Hash, Rabada, Duminy, spinner, Ngidi. Hit the quota numbers if we play all of these, but only Hash, Rabada and spinner are sure spots for now. If the black bowlers don't come right it's going to end up limiting opportunities for new white bats. This said, with WC coming up, there's probably going to be a lot of chopping and changing, so everyone who deserves a look should get one.
My point, we don't want him having to think about keeping his wicket... this is just my opinion.

The most important thing about my comment though is to give the batsmen a task/idea of how they should be playing based on their ability and what they bring to the team and stick with it, let them get used to the role and grow confidence in it. Right now we stick to rigidly to the batting line-up and players are coming to do a job that is not natural to them. The only player that is capable of easily doing whatever is needed is deVIllers unfortunately we do not have 6 of him...
 

Bolo

State Captain
Except for JP, I think all the experienced players have pretty well defined roles based on ability. Ab gets more than 1 role based on more than 1 ability.

I don't really think it's easy to define roles for new players until they have been tested- we aren't completely sure what their abilities are.

Batting lineup always needs to be flexible. Maybe more so than we manage, but I don't think we are that bad at it. We see a reasonable amount of ab and Miller floating in the lineup as the quickest scorers.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Except for JP, I think all the experienced players have pretty well defined roles based on ability. Ab gets more than 1 role based on more than 1 ability.

I don't really think it's easy to define roles for new players until they have been tested- we aren't completely sure what their abilities are.

Batting lineup always needs to be flexible. Maybe more so than we manage, but I don't think we are that bad at it. We see a reasonable amount of ab and Miller floating in the lineup as the quickest scorers.
We are fully aware of what Markram and Klaasens are capable of... Markram is an allround player, but I would give him a role as an aggresive opner that needs to not worry about stabilizing the team, he can take that role on in 3/4 years time. Klaasens is a power hitter, it is why he is being chosen. He can bat top order but we have enough of those.

Miller is a perfect example of where we failed, he needs time to get in so needs to bat 4/5 asking him to bat 6 tends to fail because he starts going for big hits before his eye is in, other than that some of his stroke play is limited, so if in to early he gets bogged down and can struggle to rotate. If we are 4 down early seldomly has Miller carried his bat to take us to the end (Similar problem to Jonker imo, but Jonker not as good). Duminy and Behardien have done better at the role but neither have enough of a power game. Hence why Klaasens is a great addition.

A number of times we have had QDK get out early and ended with Amla and Faf batting together early in the innings, not they not good enough but we need somebody for who its is more natural to hit over the top, hence why we tried deVillers at 3. Only time I want Amla/Faf to be batting together is when we lose 2 quick wickets and need to consolidate.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Not sure about Klaasen yet. He looks good for the lower middle, but it might be better to have him at 4 or something to avoid an Amla/Faf partnership followed by a Faf/Duminy one.

Not sure about Markham either, so little info, including if he has the goods at all. Feel like he'd be better at the top because I'd expect big knocks from him, but I think he has the ability to get off the mark quickly and power to finish that is useful down the order as well.

Miller is going to create problems anywhere considering his limitations and the limitations of the rest of the middle re. finishing power. But he also brings more to the table. I feel like we have got a lot out of him though compared to the rest. Much better career than Duminy and berhardien, and barely behind Faf. His stats are excellent, even if they hide who he has been scoring against to some degree.

JP and Faf in the middle is what creates the real balance problem. With one of them out you can mostly fix Miller at 5 with time to build an innings and still have power behind them. Or you can play a more normal bat instead of him. Faf is going nowhere, and there are real quota problems without JP- this would mean every bowler needs to be poc every game, and this won't end well. Berhardien for JP would fix this, but I actually think he's a worse bat.

No way to fully fix the batting I can think of. It's still strong as long as people are in reasonable touch though. Bowling/lower order batting is a nightmare though unless we see guys like Morris and Andile coming right.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Not sure about Klaasen yet. He looks good for the lower middle, but it might be better to have him at 4 or something to avoid an Amla/Faf partnership followed by a Faf/Duminy one.

Not sure about Markham either, so little info, including if he has the goods at all. Feel like he'd be better at the top because I'd expect big knocks from him, but I think he has the ability to get off the mark quickly and power to finish that is useful down the order as well.

Miller is going to create problems anywhere considering his limitations and the limitations of the rest of the middle re. finishing power. But he also brings more to the table. I feel like we have got a lot out of him though compared to the rest. Much better career than Duminy and berhardien, and barely behind Faf. His stats are excellent, even if they hide who he has been scoring against to some degree.

JP and Faf in the middle is what creates the real balance problem. With one of them out you can mostly fix Miller at 5 with time to build an innings and still have power behind them. Or you can play a more normal bat instead of him. Faf is going nowhere, and there are real quota problems without JP- this would mean every bowler needs to be poc every game, and this won't end well. Berhardien for JP would fix this, but I actually think he's a worse bat.

No way to fully fix the batting I can think of. It's still strong as long as people are in reasonable touch though. Bowling/lower order batting is a nightmare though unless we see guys like Morris and Andile coming right.
Markram is pure class.... he will be a mainstay for SA going into the future, regardless of format. Expect him to become our no 3/4 long term.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Markram is pure class.... he will be a mainstay for SA going into the future, regardless of format. Expect him to become our no 3/4 long term.
I'm hoping for a lot from him too, and he really does look top drawer. Still, a lot of players who look great don't crack it- it's too early to rely on him having a great career
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
I'm hoping for a lot from him too, and he really does look top drawer. Still, a lot of players who look great don't crack it- it's too early to rely on him having a great career
Not in this case... he is not just a good player, playing well.... he is a classy, showing his class.
 

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