Short pitched stuf, egos, poor technique and denial . . .

[SJS]

Finally it took a former fast bowler from an other country to ask, even though he wasn't being involved in the discussion by the Indian gentlemen, to ask whether the "incredibly gifted" Yuvraj was 'scared' of fast and short stuff (not Bishop's exact words I know). Mr Shastri then had to agree that "Bish makes a very strong point"

Yuvraj's problem against fast and short stuff is not new. It is as old as his cricketing career but no one amongst the "great" former Indian cricketers has ever even hinted at it. The only people who will talk about it are those who have no stakes in the game. I would like to include myself in that latter group but that does not make me a cricketing pundit. All it proves is that my eye sight is not all that bad once I have my glasses or lenses in place. PLUS I can see that just because a batsman will plunder runs on a wicket not conducive to fiery short stuff and/or bowlers not able to exploit the weakness it does not mean he will not be tested by a wily fast bowler in due course of time .

Of course Yuvraj is not the only batsman from the sub continent with this problem. India and Pakistan are flooded with cricketers who love to plonk that front foot forward and make drives flowing like a million bucks. Its just that Yuvraj has been hyped so much in India and, without doubt, looks so good if he isn't tested with fiery short stuff.

On whether he is scared or not, I dont know but if he is, why wouldn't he be. If the room I was sitting in was engulfed in flames and I found my legs were in no condition to take me away from the danger I would wet my pants I guess. Yuvraj is a braver person than that. He continues to play the game.

The problem, however, isn't mental. Mental it may have become now if it affects his confidence overall. The problem is what, finally, Ravi Shastri mentioned TODAY !!!

Yuvraj does not play back PERIOD.

Use of the four feet of space between the batting crease and the stumps said Mr Shastri. Brilliant !! What fantastic insight !! Strange we never heard it for ten years !! Or is it something of a new problem with Yuvraj ?

What are our coaches doing by the way? I am sick and tired of hearing that once a cricketer reaches the international level he does not need to be taught the basics. A coach can just work on the fringes of his game and strengthen the "other" aspects. Really? Then why talk of the four feet at all.

Cricketers, including the really great ones have and/or develop problems with their games. All they need is to have egos a bit smaller than the Everest and ask. I say ask because in India no one is going say it on their own and the older cricketers who do are going to be shushed down if not derided as dinosaurs and, of course, coaches who dare to do that may find themselves without a job.

One knows of on player from the West Indies, also a left handed batsman, going to a former cricketer who had retired before the younger man reached his fifth birthday.

The young man's name was Brian Lara and the older man was one Garfield Sobers. By the way, it was not when Lara was trying to get settled as a West Indian cricketer. It was at a time when he was already being compared to the same older gentleman as perhaps one of the greatest left handed batsman in the history of the game on the planet.

 

[Daemon]

With all due respect, I doubt Yuvraj hasn't seeked help with his problems against short pitched bowling. What he's done with the advice and the lack of practice against it is a different thing altogether, but I think it wouldn't be fair to assume Yuvraj isn't concerned about his own issues with the short ball. That's for the ego bit at least.

Besides that I think your post about his problems is spot on.

 

[SJS]

With all due respect, I doubt Yuvraj hasn't seeked help with his problems against short pitched bowling. What he's done with the advice and the lack of practice against it is a different thing altogether, but I think it wouldn't be fair to assume Yuvraj isn't concerned about his own issues with the short ball. That's for the ego bit at least.

Besides that I think your post about his problems is spot on.

Has he? Do you know for a fact or you are presuming because it is the obvious thing to do. Well if he has then I guess someone must have told him that to play it or to leave it, you need to go back not forward to short pitched bowling. If someone told him that, he doesn't seemed to be listening.

By the way, it isn't always the case to assume that cricketers, particularly the "superstars" of the sub continent, go eagerly seeking advise - not all of them. Harbhajan is a case in point. Erappally, the great Indian off spinner was asked on a live TV interview whether he could help Harbhajan when Harbhajan started going into a rut. Prasanna, blunt man that he is said something to the effect, "Well, I might, just might be able to tell him what he is doing wrong for that is quite obvious to me."

When the interviewer asked "then why dont you", The great man replied, you want me to go seeking him ? If he asks me I am available for whatever it takes. PERIOD

To the best of my knowledge Harbhajan has never gone and met Prasanna.

In the series at home where Harbhajan hit his two centuries, when he was getting his award at the end of the series, Shastri asked him if he wasn't worried about his bowling for he seemed to be really striggling with his bowling in the series.

Harbhajan replied ****ily with words to the effect . . . There is nothing wrong with my bowling. One needs more than just good bowling to get wickets. I cant keep having bad luck. When my luck turns the wickets will come !!

I guess the selectors weren't willing to wait that long and Harbhajan's luck finaly ran out.

The point here is that many young and highly feted cricketers do not easily admit, even to themselves, that they need help with their game. We, the fans, alongwith the media (not to mention the sponsors and the millions) have a role in making them feel they are the dmi-Gods everyone tells them they are.

Just an aside. Dravid was getting out a lot in the last year or two to incoming balls that he was trying to cut square of the wicket. Guess what he did?

He talked to (or was talked to by someone you would think should not be on the same page, nay same book, as Dravid when we talk batting techniques - one Virender Sehwag.

Segwag told him to play back, go right upto the stumps but not necessarily across and then play a straight bat backfoot drive to the off side. In the last three series, Dravid has shown a remarkable new shot and scored many runs with it. Well Sehwag told him to play it and Dravid was neither too big to ask nor too stupid not to see the logic of it and finally, good enough to do it at the highest level to profit.

I have no personal knowledge of whether Yuvraj was told by anyone or not but one hasn't heard anything from any of our Gavaskar's or Shastri's on what he should be doing for his problems against the short ball. All, you hear is things like, Yuvraj is one of the most talented batsmen to come out of the sub continent, when he gets back to form, there will be no stopping him, any one can run into a bad patch.

Its not difficult to start believing all that stuff and as Manjrekar mentioned today, it is difficult at times for some players to admit that they have a problem and need help . . .

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Yuvraj is more interested in night clubs and partying than seeking advice.

 

[Flem274*]

It' not just Yuvraj or even subcontinental batsmen. It's no coincidence that Ross Taylor, Jamie How and Tim McIntosh all improved significantly after getting help from a certain new CW member. Only Taylor was able to translate it to consistent test scores, but McIntosh especially is a much better domestic batsman now than the one score a summer player he was.

 

[Daemon]

Has he? Do you know for a fact or you are presuming because it is the obvious thing to do. Well if he has then I guess someone must have told him that to play it or to leave it, you need to go back not forward to short pitched bowling. If someone told him that, he doesn't seemed to be listening.

I don't know.

What I said earlier is that I 'doubt' he hasn't seeked help, especially with all the guys around him that he can ask. It's the same way you doubt he has asked anyone because of his ego problems. It's simply speculation. The media doesn't report every training session to us and we don't have the complete picture.

I also said - "what he's done with the advice and the lack of practice against it is a different thing altogether", which addresses your second point, that he is either not listening, or is simply not up to it.

By the way, it isn't always the case to assume that cricketers, particularly the "superstars" of the sub continent, go eagerly seeking advise - not all of them. Harbhajan is a case in point. Erappally, the great Indian off spinner was asked on a live TV interview whether he could help Harbhajan when Harbhajan started going into a rut. Prasanna, blunt man that he is said something to the effect, "Well, I might, just might be able to tell him what he is doing wrong for that is quite obvious to me."

When the interviewer asked "then why dont you", The great man replied, you want me to go seeking him ? If he asks me I am available for whatever it takes. PERIOD

To the best of my knowledge Harbhajan has never gone and met Prasanna.

In the series at home where Harbhajan hit his two centuries, when he was getting his award at the end of the series, Shastri asked him if he wasn't worried about his bowling for he seemed to be really striggling with his bowling in the series.

Harbhajan replied ****ily with words to the effect . . . There is nothing wrong with my bowling. One needs more than just good bowling to get wickets. I cant keep having bad luck. When my luck turns the wickets will come !!

That's interesting. That post match comment especially.. has lowered my opinion of him somewhat. I pretty much loathe lazy cricketers. (Though not necessarily arrogant ones)

The point here is that many young and highly feted cricketers do not easily admit, even to themselves, that they need help with their game. We, the fans, alongwith the media (not to mention the sponsors and the millions) have a role in making them feel they are the dmi-Gods everyone tells them they are.

"..I think it wouldn't be fair to assume Yuvraj isn't concerned about his own issues with the short ball"

Along with that, I don't think it's fair to assume at all that the 'young and highly feted cricketers' have been made into arrogant players who feel they're too great to be coached. Dhoni not too long ago went about his game a lot different from what he does now; he's changed a lot. When he first came onto the scene he was relatively young, and was instantly propelled to this 'Demi-God' status. Doesn't look to have affected him a lot. Gambhir looks like a really hard working guy as well. Kohli's said explicitly that arrogance was his problems and he's worked on it a lot.

I've read comments that praise Ishant Sharma for being one of the guys in the teams who train the hardest. He's said before that he's taken advice from tons of people, and eventually he realised he was following too much information. He went on to say that listening to Zaheer as a team mate *** mentor helped him immensely.

How do I know this? Media.

That's my point, everything we know is limited to the media and what we see players do on the playing field. We think Harbhajan is a douche based on his attitude on the field, but no one knows how hard he's worked during training because the media hasn't reported that. We can only just speculate. It's not fair to the new players to bracket them as a young, ****y and arrogant generation because each individual player is different. What we see on the field isn't necessarily the entire story and that's what leads me to not want to place such accusations.

Just an aside. Dravid was getting out a lot in the last year or two to incoming balls that he was trying to cut square of the wicket. Guess what he did?

He talked to (or was talked to by someone you would think should not be on the same page, nay same book, as Dravid when we talk batting techniques - one Virender Sehwag.

Segwag told him to play back, go right upto the stumps but not necessarily across and then play a straight bat backfoot drive to the off side. In the last three series, Dravid has shown a remarkable new shot and scored many runs with it. Well Sehwag told him to play it and Dravid was neither too big to ask nor too stupid not to see the logic of it and finally, good enough to do it at the highest level to profit.

I have no personal knowledge of whether Yuvraj was told by anyone or not but one hasn't heard anything from any of our Gavaskar's or Shastri's on what he should be doing for his problems against the short ball. All, you hear is things like, Yuvraj is one of the most talented batsmen to come out of the sub continent, when he gets back to form, there will be no stopping him, any one can run into a bad patch.

Its not difficult to start believing all that stuff and as Manjrekar mentioned today, it is difficult at times for some players to admit that they have a problem and need help . . .

True, that might be the case for some. But I personally don't feel it's right to place (what I believe are heavy) accusations on a sportsperson's character on the basis of speculation.


Yuvraj definitely has a technical problem, I agree. Attitude on the field, sure. Laziness? Perhaps, but I don't think it's fair to assume that. I remember reading an interview of his in which he detailed his weight loss and stuff like that.

I'd say more and dig out more examples but I kinda have a Biology exam tomorrow

 

[SJS]

I don't know.

True, that might be the case for some. But I personally don't feel it's right to place (what I believe are heavy) accusations on a sportsperson's character on the basis of speculation.


Yuvraj definitely has a technical problem, I agree. Attitude on the field, sure. Laziness? Perhaps, but I don't think it's fair to assume that. I remember reading an interview of his in which he detailed his weight loss and stuff like that.

I'd say more and dig out more examples but I kinda have a Biology exam tomorrow

Accusations on his character ?? Wow !

I didnt think I was doing that ?

I thought Yuvraj has a technical problem and that I have said for many years and is on record here on CW. The point I was making was that no one wants to even say it about some players like Yuvraj and Harbhajan where as if a "minor" player. The reasons, If I mentioned will sound to you like conspiracy theories I guess so lets leave it at that. I made the thread since Bishop brought up the matter and Shastri was forced into admitting that there was an issue not just by the Yuvraj show at the wicket but because Manjrekar forced the point. Sanjay, by the way, is one of those commentators who will call a spade a spade but he, sadly, is a lesser light on the Indian "experts" board . . .

I am glad to hear that you agree that Yuvraj has a technical problem. There was a thread here about who should open for India with Sehwag and the choice offered in the thread title was "Chopra or Yuvraj" and the left handers case was presented quite passionately by some of my Indian friends here.

No dont bother to "dig up" something. I am sure your biology test is more important. Just ignore me, I am just an old foggy who likes to ramble once in a while :-)

 

[Daemon]

Accusations on his character ?? Wow !

I didnt think I was doing that ?

I thought Yuvraj has a technical problem and that I have said for many years and is on record here on CW. The point I was making was that no one wants to even say it about some players like Yuvraj and Harbhajan where as if a "minor" player. The reasons, If I mentioned will sound to you like conspiracy theories I guess so lets leave it at that. I made the thread since Bishop brought up the matter and Shastri was forced into admitting that there was an issue not just by the Yuvraj show at the wicket but because Manjrekar forced the point. Sanjay, by the way, is one of those commentators who will call a spade a spade but he, sadly, is a lesser light on the Indian "experts" board . . .

I am glad to hear that you agree that Yuvraj has a technical problem. There was a thread here about who should open for India with Sehwag and the choice offered in the thread title was "Chopra or Yuvraj" and the left handers case was presented quite passionately by some of my Indian friends here.

No dont bother to "dig up" something. I am sure your biology test is more important. Just ignore me, I am just an old foggy who likes to ramble once in a while :-)

Haha, fair enough. I wrongly interpreted the post as you accusing the younger guys of having ego problems and stuff.

I enjoy reading your 'rambles' tbh, please do it more often

 

[vic_orthdox]

The fact that he can be successful in other formats and at lower levels without altering what he does also has a big effect, IMO.

 

[SJS]

The fact that he can be successful in other formats and at lower levels without altering what he does also has a big effect, IMO.

You are absolutely right. It does and the smaller format is increasingly the preferred form of the game, particularly for the Indian fan. In fact, it is impossible to argue with people who will start naming youngsters who they think should be playing test cricket because of how they do in IPL let alone ODI's !!

The fact that the limited overs format tends to reduce the appreciation of the nuances of the game makes it worse. It is not just bowling as an art that is finding fewer people that understand and appreciate, it is even the finer aspects of batting. On top of it the electronic media is full of young anchors whose only requirement for the job appears to be youth and looks. This introduces a form of "punditry" that the new fans find easy to identify with for it makes no demands on understanding the finer aspects of the game. You have to see the visiting former cricketers squirm at some of our TV anchors who cant stop expressing opinions.

All this can have an effect on a young cricketer but that is not where the problem stops. Thats where it starts as far as I am concerned. All this is exactly the reason why the former top cricketers must play an enabling role and guide cricket fans as well as young cricketers in the right direction but so much is the financial stake of those who are entrenched as the main "experts" that they just refuse to cal a spade even a digging implement let alone a shovel.

The only former cricketers one hears talking sense are all those who never make it to the commentators box as paid experts and sometimes it is shocking to see those that do taking tongue-in-cheek digs at these former greats.

It is such a pleasure to hear the English former cricketers in the commentary box only because on matters cricketing they do not soft peddle each and every issue which is exactly how they should behave to earn their fees.

The only things where some of our former cricketers who are the seniors on commentary teams talk passionately is when defending some real and mostly imagined hurt to the Indian, sub-continental or even coloured pride. For they know this is just the kind of rhetoric the public love to lap up.

They do not have time to dissect the game and say things which are factually correct even if some of them will show our cricketing Gods- to be slightly less than that exalted status.

I cant recall the last time I heard a genuine criticism of Tendulkar from any of the senior commentators from India. If they do it, it is not going to bring down Sachin's stature, let alone hurt him (I am sure he is a bigger man than that) but we have built a culture where it is a complete no-no.

Just to take a very recent example. Sachin is repeatedly playing square square of the wicket balls coming in to him and going onto the stumps. Of course he is a great player and does fabulously most of the time but thats not always the case. Increasingly he is making an error when the ball keeps a trifle lower or deviates a bit more or comes a bit quicker then he expected. With the result, sachin finds himself in an appeal for lbw. Many times he is out at others he escapes with the skin of his teeth and sometimes due to an umpiring error. I refuse to believe that Gavaskar hasn't noticed that. Then why shouldn't he say it on the TV What's the point in having former greats as "experts" if we are to be deprived of their wisdom in understanding the nuances of the game.

What's the point in just keeping n harping about the soft hands blah blah blah.

The reason so many cricket fans loved Ganguly in his first season on TV was because he came as a breath of fresh air in this regard. I don't know why he isn't on the panel for this series. He was so damn good. Not in the class of some of the Englishmen but from the Indian pool he stands out and the reason is what I describe.

Now the effect of this "diplomatic attitude" of people whose voices carry weight not only have caused the Indian spectators to move from dumb to dumberer, it is, in all probability, making some of the chosen few feel there really isn't anything whatsoever wrong with their game.

This is the point of this thread by the way. The example of Yuvraj is recent (today's) hence it is in the limelight.

 

[honestbharani]

That Lara-Sobers story is one of the best things I had read on cricket back in the day.

 

[keeper]

I simply don't know enough about the guy to know if I what I saw on the highlights while at the gym was the result of poor technique, poor attitude, lack of backbone or just poor form. But considering the conditions it was quite shocking stuff.

 

[chicane]

He has problems against pace, bounce, swing, seam, spin, EVERYTHING! Yet he played those dazzling knocks in Pakistan, in 4th innings run chases, in so many ODIs all over. Probably his technical issues are also largely due to his poor work ethic.

 

[keeper]

He has problems against EVERYTHING!

Aye, I can empathise with that...

 

[Bouncer]

That Lara-Sobers story is one of the best things I had read on cricket back in the day.

Can you post a link to that story?

 

[honestbharani]

It was on sportstar during that 2001 series in Sri Lanka. You can google it. Tony Cozier wrote a big coverstory on that.