MasterBlaster24
U19 Cricketer
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Saeed Anwar vs Sourav Ganguly
- Thread starter MasterBlaster24
- Start date
Thala_0710
International Captain
Anwar
ankitj
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
MasterBlaster24
U19 Cricketer
@ankitj If we apply the same logic to the other thread, then Sangakkara > Ganguly because he performed well against South Africa and Australia. I'm not saying that, but you have to remember that Anwar and Ganguly didn't have the same level of batting support when comparing them. Ganguly had Sachin, who was one of the best in ODI history, and Dravid, who was also really good in ODIs during that period. Anwar had to play a consistent, high strike-rate role for his team because most of his teammates often batted with a strike rate of around 70.
For your information, Ganguly averages 25 with the bat against top teams in world cups if we exclude his 183 against the Sri Lankan team. That Sri Lankan team was similar to India’s 2007 World Cup team. They looked good on paper but performed horribly, getting knocked out in the group stage. For the record, they had the second-worst bowling average in that World Cup among all teams.
For your information, Ganguly averages 25 with the bat against top teams in world cups if we exclude his 183 against the Sri Lankan team. That Sri Lankan team was similar to India’s 2007 World Cup team. They looked good on paper but performed horribly, getting knocked out in the group stage. For the record, they had the second-worst bowling average in that World Cup among all teams.
I think situations are a bit different. You could perform better than others against 2 best bowling side so you can get some brownie points in comparison but if you simply struggle in entire career then it's a huge black mark.
Crossing 50 only once in 50+ innings and averaging 20 in entire career against two best sides should count as a huge negative. It's not some sub sample size, it's his entire career.
In other comparison, Sanga and Gangully both have a resonable record against Aus/SA with Sanga having better. Both have also faced Pak which Anwar did not have to face.
ankitj
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Reason I'm on this Ganguly advocacy mode right now is because many on here have completely forgotten how good Ganguly was (and so was Anwar tbf). If you just look at his average he doesn't come off as anything special with 41 average. But he was for a period of 4-5 years performing at a level where he wasn't too far off Tendulkar. Within a few months of each other he led India to its then highest ODI total ever and to its (and world's) then highest successful run chase. Its not some Kallis/Dravid level middle overs accumulation but playing the role of an actual enforcer. His average also was north of 44 around 2002 which was impressive for the time.
Anwar was also top tier opener of course. I won't be able to list his defining knocks (his record breaking 194 apart) as easily as maybe a Pak fan can. But curious to compare the best knocks of both.
Here's the best of Ganguly:
Anwar was also top tier opener of course. I won't be able to list his defining knocks (his record breaking 194 apart) as easily as maybe a Pak fan can. But curious to compare the best knocks of both.
Here's the best of Ganguly:
MasterBlaster24
U19 Cricketer
I think you're ignoring the importance of strike rate here. Jayasuriya averaged 21 and 24 respectively against South Africa and Australia, but he was still a better ODI batter than both Sangakkara and Ganguly. Bro, limited-overs cricket is all about impact.
Just think about this, for example: both Sangakkara and Yuvraj debuted in 2000, and if we take the end of the 2011 World Cup as a cutoff date, Sangakkara averaged 42 against Australia and South Africa combined, while Yuvraj averaged only 32 against the same oppositions during that period. But if I asked who you'd pick as an ODI batter in that time frame, it's definitely Yuvraj, isn't it? That's a no brainer really.
The same applies to Sehwag. He was one of the most impactful batters of the 2000s decade. You can’t say he was a poor ODI batter just because he averaged in the 20s against both Australia and South Africa. It’s all about overall impact, man. His explosive starts in the powerplay were one of the main reasons for India’s success in ODI cricket during the 2000s, especially in the 2011 World Cup triumph.
Checklist-style analysis isn't the best way to rate ODI batters. It’s like ranking players solely based on ICC rankings. That really sucks.
Now, coming back to the main topic: both Sangakkara and Ganguly played the role of accumulator in ODIs. Anwar, on the other hand, had to take on a high strike rate, consistent scoring role for his team. Those are two completely different roles.
For your information, if you look at Pakistani top-order batters who scored a minimum of 1,000 ODI runs in the 1990s, only two had a strike rate above 80 — Anwar and Afridi. Pakistan tried Afridi as a pinch hitter at the top in the 1990s, and that turned out to be a massive failure. Afridi only delivered once in a blue moon. So, the responsibility of being the aggressor at the top fell on Anwar.
Anwar had a strike rate above 83 in the 1990s. If he had played more cautiously and taken fewer risks, he might have ended up averaging a bit higher than 40, but that wouldn’t have benefited the team. I’m not saying he would have definitely scored more against Australia and South Africa by playing slower, but the point is: he had a different role and faced different challenges. Anwar had more pressure because the batting support around him wasn’t the same as what Ganguly had.
For example, just look at the performance of Pakistani batters in World Cups during Anwar’s era.
Ganguly was also an excellent ODI batter, so credit to him for that. I rate Anwar ahead of Ganguly based on impact. That’s it.
subshakerz
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Actually this is a good point I never realised. Anwar had a lot more pressure in the Pakistan lineup.
ankitj
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I care even less about average against each opposition in ODIs than I do in tests. But it's really odd how little Anwar has to show for against Aus and SA. I wouldn't care about his averages against those two if he had like 5-6 good knocks.
Edit: And my argument in favour of Ganguly is exactly about impact.
ankitj
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This is just not true for Ganguly (especially when he was opening) as I have tried to argue in multiple posts.
I give SR a large weight in limited overs, but to even get to that you got to score , SR otherwise is uselss.I think you're ignoring the importance of strike rate here. Jayasuriya averaged 21 and 24 respectively against South Africa and Australia, but he was still a better ODI batter than both Sangakkara and Ganguly. Bro, limited-overs cricket is all about impact.
Just think about this, for example: both Sangakkara and Yuvraj debuted in 2000, and if we take the end of the 2011 World Cup as a cutoff date, Sangakkara averaged 42 against Australia and South Africa combined, while Yuvraj averaged only 32 against the same oppositions during that period. But if I asked who you'd pick as an ODI batter in that time frame, it's definitely Yuvraj, isn't it? That's a no brainer really.
The same applies to Sehwag. He was one of the most impactful batters of the 2000s decade. You can’t say he was a poor ODI batter just because he averaged in the 20s against both Australia and South Africa. It’s all about overall impact, man. His explosive starts in the powerplay were one of the main reasons for India’s success in ODI cricket during the 2000s, especially in the 2011 World Cup triumph.
Checklist-style analysis isn't the best way to rate ODI batters. It’s like ranking players solely based on ICC rankings. That really sucks.
Now, coming back to the main topic: both Sangakkara and Ganguly played the role of accumulator in ODIs. Anwar, on the other hand, had to take on a high strike rate, consistent scoring role for his team. Those are two completely different roles.
For your information, if you look at Pakistani top-order batters who scored a minimum of 1,000 ODI runs in the 1990s, only two had a strike rate above 80 — Anwar and Afridi. Pakistan tried Afridi as a pinch hitter at the top in the 1990s, and that turned out to be a massive failure. Afridi only delivered once in a blue moon. So, the responsibility of being the aggressor at the top fell on Anwar.
Anwar had a strike rate above 83 in the 1990s. If he had played more cautiously and taken fewer risks, he might have ended up averaging a bit higher than 40, but that wouldn’t have benefited the team. I’m not saying he would have definitely scored more against Australia and South Africa by playing slower, but the point is: he had a different role and faced different challenges. Anwar had more pressure because the batting support around him wasn’t the same as what Ganguly had.
For example, just look at the performance of Pakistani batters in World Cups during Anwar’s era.
Ganguly was also an excellent ODI batter, so credit to him for that. I rate Anwar ahead of Ganguly based on impact. That’s it.
For Anwar, it's not about SR or avg, it's pretty much him not having any score against top 2 bowling sides and him not having to face 3rd best bowling side. He has crossed 50 only once in 50+ innings agaisnt SA/Aus. You are not going to have any impact if you do that. Jaya has scored 50+ 12 times. Not the same situation.
91 ODI's - Jaya has 12+ scores of 50 or higher against SA/Aus
54 ODI - Anwar has 1 score of 50 or higher against SA/Aus
Both have avg of near 20, but one had impact due to scoring runs and other had virtually no impact in a big sample size against two best bowling sides and also did not face the third best bowling side of his time.
I did not pay attention to this earlier but after seeing it in this thread, I would take away lots of points from Anwar.
Last edited:
smash84
The Tiger King
For the first half of Anwar's career WI was one of the best teams going around btw not just SA and Aus.
Yes, in the first half of Anwar's career, WI was one of the best teams, but here is Anwar against WI in his first half of his career.
MasterBlaster24
U19 Cricketer
No, that's not quite right. Ganguly's strike rate as an opener was about the same as his overall ODI strike rate, which is around 73.