Richards, Smith, Lara, Hammond

[subshakerz]

Idk about anyone else but I'm on subz case because he's being disingenuous and dismissive as usual. For example, he says Smith's record is inflated because Smith's feasted at home. Each and everyone of us has pointed out that Smith is the only current player averaging 50+ away. Then Subz would say that's good and all but, nothing special because others like Chappell, Sachin, Waugh etc did the same. He's probably trolling but the rest of us think that fact alone is amazing.

Both of those statements are objectively true.

Smith feasted on home.

Smith's overall average away from home, while outstanding for the era, is not historically exceptional.

The sole purpose of bringing these facts is because higher than normal average plays so strong into perceptions of Smith's greatness among posters here. I add necessary nuance.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Yeah and two of the greats of our time struggle in Australia: Root and Williamson.

Williamson has played 7 tests in Australia and scored 2 100s. How is that struggling?

 

[Coronis]

Both of those statements are objectively true.

Smith feasted on home.

Smith's overall average away from home, while outstanding for the era, is not historically exceptional.

The sole purpose of bringing these facts is because higher than normal average plays so strong into perceptions of Smith's greatness among posters here. I add necessary nuance.

The average goes to 35 i.e the same as Tendulkar’s entire career.

Having a top 10-15 away record in history isn’t exceptional? Especially when its so dominant across others from your era?

 

[Coronis]

Williamson has played 7 tests in Australia and scored 2 100s. How is that struggling?

Yeah would not say Williamson struggles in Australia.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Each and everyone of us has pointed out that Smith is the only current player averaging 50+ away.

Very small sample size but Daryl Mitchell averages 57 away

 

[Bolo.]

Afaic, tracks in India, in Sachins, time as now, were even less conducive to pace than what Smith batted on (in Australia). That Smith capitalized more is being held against him is odd. Oh well...

Typically more bounce and pace than India. But there's less swing and spin than India.

Sachin and Smith both matched the best Indian/Aus bats from their eras at home. Probably both underperformed a touch in relation to their less fancied teamates at home (which makes a statement about being great away rather than functioning as a critique ftr).

I think Sachin was 'competing' against higher quality teammates though.

I don't really think Sachin was better away than Smith though, other than longevity and related factors.

 

[Slifer]

Yes. I am pointing out the weakness in Smith but he is up there. But to summarize the weaknesses as I see in 'best after Bradman' candidates:

Tendulkar - Lack of standout series

Viv - Below ATG level after peak

Sobers - Minor blemishes in overall record in and against countries

Hobbs - The whole pre-professional era question

Smith - Lack of ATG bowlers faced and home inflation

Bolded is true, although when they retire i can see Bumrah, Rabada and maybe even Jamieson (if he plays) elevated to atg level. The latter true but shouldn't be a criticism because he's more than great away. And I can't recall any time in cricket where a player was far and away the best away like that above other contemporary greats. Maybe Ken Barrington??

 

[subshakerz]

The average goes to 35 i.e the same as Tendulkar’s entire career.

Having a top 10-15 away record in history isn’t exceptional? Especially when its so dominant across others from your era?

I dont think raw average that is a good measure to determine pitch quality frankly because it also has to do with quality of opposition faced at home, quality of batting lineups, etc.

Yes, a top 10-15 away record isn't exceptional in ATG conversations.

 

[subshakerz]

Bolded is true, although when they retire i can see Bumrah, Rabada and maybe even Jamieson (if he plays) elevated to atg level. The latter true but shouldn't be a criticism because he's more than great away. And I can't recall any time in cricket where a player was far and away the best away like that above other contemporary greats. Maybe Ken Barrington??

So both my contentions are true, yet somehow I am 'disingenuous'

Yeah Smith is ahead of his contemporaries, maybe Viv was seen like that for the first half of his career though.

 

[kyear2]

Yes. I am pointing out the weakness in Smith but he is up there. But to summarize the weaknesses as I see in 'best after Bradman' candidates:

Tendulkar - Lack of standout series

Viv - Below ATG level after peak

Sobers - Minor blemishes in overall record in and against countries

Hobbs - The whole pre-professional era question

Smith - Lack of ATG bowlers faced and home inflation

Again you skip Lara

 

[Coronis]

I dont think raw average that is a good measure to determine pitch quality frankly because it also has to do with quality of opposition faced at home, quality of batting lineups, etc.

Yes, a top 10-15 away record isn't exceptional in ATG conversations.

Yes “I think pitches were easier” is a much better objective way to do it.

So despite his home record being ranked similarly historically and worse for his era its exceptional, makes sense.

 

[subshakerz]

Again you skip Lara

Sorry, my mistake.

Lara - Dodgy against high pace and not quite as strong away.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes “I think pitches were easier” is a much better objective way to do it.

So despite his home record being ranked similarly historically and worse for his era its exceptional, makes sense.

I admit, I don't know an objective way to determine flat pitchness, it will have to left to the determination of each posters whether mid-2010s Aussie pitches were bowling-friendly.

However, I don't mind Smith fans saying that Smith capitalised on such conditions better than other ATGs, as long as they acknowledge how it contributes to his overall high average.

 

[Slifer]

So both my contentions are true, yet somehow I am 'disingenuous'

Yeah Smith is ahead of his contemporaries, maybe Viv was seen like that for the first half of his career though.

When you say things like Smith faced Steyn and Philander scored a 100 but they bowled trash, that is being disingenuous.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Players far worse than Smith have done well against peak Bumrah, Rabada, Jamieson etc so no reason to think Smith isn’t capable of it

 

[subshakerz]

When you say things like Smith faced Steyn and Philander scored a 100 but they bowled trash, that is being disingenuous.

Because I saw the game. And if you don't believe me, here is a Day 1 match report:

'The South Africans? They were awful after lunch. As fatigued as they might have been late in the day, there aren’t many plausible excuses for the listless, directionless bowling performance before and after the arrival of the second new ball. Steyn was threatening early in the day but off the boil when times got tough and Philander much the same. Morne Morkel occasionally bowled with menace but was culpable in the field, lolling about at a desperately low tempo that was indicative of South Africa’s malaise.

The Australians will sleep well tonight but also know that South Africa rarely puts in two shockers in a row.'

South Africa v Australia: day one – as it happened

An unbeaten fifth-wicket stand of 199 between Shaun Marsh and Steve Smith helped the tourists reach 297-4 at stumps on day one of the first Test in South Africa

www.google.com

Don't compare the above with Steyn bowling arguably his greatest ever spells at home against India.

 

[Slifer]

Still doesn't change the fact that Smith made runs vs an atg attack... How they bowled is irrelevant. And Sachin still has zero great series vs a great attack. One atg does not an atg attack make.

 

[subshakerz]

Still doesn't change the fact that Smith made runs vs an atg attack... How they bowled is irrelevant. And Sachin still has zero great series vs a great attack. One atg does not an atg attack make.

Yes and if you followed by arguments, I said Smith deserves baseline credit for scoring against SA but I think I am solid grounds when I rate Tendulkar vs SA 2010 higher. Ignoring how they bowled is just odd.

And yes, I already acknowledged lack of great series as a weakness for Tendulkar. Several good series, no great one.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Still doesn't change the fact that Smith made runs vs an atg attack... How they bowled is irrelevant. And Sachin still has zero great series vs a great attack. One atg does not an atg attack make.

Steyn and Morkel is a great attack. And the 2019 attack Smith wasn’t great(Archer and a decent Broad isn’t great). He did well vs great attacks during Eng 2015, Ind 2017, SA 2013. Nz 2016 is very good, but not great(Boult+Southee+Wagner. Steyn and Morkel is far superior). And Sachin’s 99 series in Aus was a very good one, falling short of great very slightly.

 

[Slifer]

Yes and if you followed by arguments, I said Smith deserves baseline credit for scoring against SA but I think I am solid grounds when I rate Tendulkar vs SA 2010 higher. Ignoring how they bowled is just odd.

And yes, I already acknowledged lack of great series as a weakness for Tendulkar. Several good series, no great one.

There is hope for you yet. J/k. We should do this again sometime....