Ravindra Jadeja vs Anil Kumble

[Xix2565]

The way I see it is, Kumble got a lot more opportunities to bowl overall due to being fitter and so available for selection and having less overall bowling support, which is part of why he has a large volume of wickets compared to Jadeja (as well as being a really good bowler). Jadeja for his part hasn't had the same number of opportunities, due to injuries and the selection group having a different view on how to pick players when Ashwin and more recently the pace bowlers also are available. That he's gotten more chances now is to his credit, even if it doesn't show in the bowling department away from home as for now overall.

Like a reason bowlers are picked is down to conditions, and you can't tell me that a lot of the games India have played away from home during Jadeja(/Ashwin)'s careers have had conditions suitable for spin all that often. Kumble if he played now would also be struggling with getting to play games away from home for exactly this reason, that the conditions don't suit him as much and that India can afford to leave him out unlike in the past. None of this seems to even exist though in some people's minds when it comes to rating players though, and I really wonder if they do watch and understand cricket as much as they seem to believe.

 

[subshakerz]

The way I see it is, Kumble got a lot more opportunities to bowl overall due to being fitter and so available for selection and having less overall bowling support, which is part of why he has a large volume of wickets compared to Jadeja (as well as being a really good bowler). Jadeja for his part hasn't had the same number of opportunities, due to injuries and the selection group having a different view on how to pick players when Ashwin and more recently the pace bowlers also are available. That he's gotten more chances now is to his credit, even if it doesn't show in the bowling department away from home as for now overall.

Like a reason bowlers are picked is down to conditions, and you can't tell me that a lot of the games India have played away from home during Jadeja(/Ashwin)'s careers have had conditions suitable for spin all that often. Kumble if he played now would also be struggling with getting to play games away from home for exactly this reason, that the conditions don't suit him as much and that India can afford to leave him out unlike in the past. None of this seems to even exist though in some people's minds when it comes to rating players though, and I really wonder if they do watch and understand cricket as much as they seem to believe.

Points to counter:

- Jadeja not being fit enough to get a bigger career haul is a point against him actually and goes back to longevity in favor of Kumble. You are just brushing aside 600 plus wickets as if it's something ordinary.

- Away conditions during Kumble's time were probably as or even less friendly to bowl on. It's pretty rich to complain about this given the spicy wickets they have been served the last decade at home.

- We have watched the game and Kumble especially in the 2000s was given a lot more respect as a bowler than Jadeja against a higher calibre of batsmen than Jadeja generally faced. Aside from 44 wickets in 7 games against an ATG Australia on roads, he had an important role in both victories in England and in the WI.

By the time Kumble retired, he was recognized as not just India's greatest spinner but a great. When Jadeja retires, nobody in the cricket world will remember him as a spinner except maybe as part of the Ashwin tag team at home.

 

[Xix2565]

Points to counter:

- Jadeja not being fit enough to get a bigger career haul is a point against him actually and goes back to longevity in favor of Kumble. You are just brushing aside 600 plus wickets as if it's something ordinary.

- Away conditions during Kumble's time were probably as or even less friendly to bowl on. It's pretty rich to complain about this given the spicy wickets they have been served the last decade at home.

- We have watched the game and Kumble especially in the 2000s was given a lot more respect as a bowler than Jadeja against a higher calibre of batsmen than Jadeja generally faced. Aside from 44 wickets in 7 games against an ATG Australia on roads, he had an important role in both victories in England and in the WI.

By the time Kumble retired, he was recognized as not just India's greatest spinner but a great. When Jadeja retires, nobody in the cricket world will remember him as a spinner except maybe as part of the Ashwin tag team at home.

Jadeja is an allrounder though, and so just more valuable to the Indian side than Kumble was to his because he allows them to play 5 bowlers more easily without losing much batting.

There's different definitions of less friendly though, considering that they're both spinners. You basically failed this question about Philander in the other thread and so I don't think you get that point as well as you think.

Meaningless bullshit again. Kumble didn't win in Australia even with all his wickets so that's a mark against him, especially when McGrath and Warne were out for one series.

Once again, stop using your fanfiction as some sort of general consensus. I don't get it, do you actually want to care about cricket or do you want to write a fantasy story here? None of this makes any sort of sense and you should feel embarrassed to even think about typing this up for other people to read.

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja is an allrounder though, and so just more valuable to the Indian side than Kumble was to his because he allows them to play 5 bowlers more easily without losing much batting.

Sure so the conversation we should be having is whether Jadeja allround value is more than Kumble extra spin value, which actually I am willing to concede assuming Jadeja plays more tests. But I don't think you are willing to concede Kumble is a better spinner.

There's different definitions of less friendly though, considering that they're both spinners. You basically failed this question about Philander in the other thread and so I don't think you get that point as well as you think.

Clarify please. My point is that Kumble in the 2000s faced flatter pitches and tougher batting lineups away from home. You don't seem to be challenging that.

Meaningless bull**** again. Kumble didn't win in Australia even with all his wickets so that's a mark against him, especially when McGrath and Warne were out for one series.

Winning series is a team effort, especially against an ATG team better than any Jadeja faced. We can just judge Kumble based on his own bowling contribution there, along with in England and WI, which is considerably more than anything Jadeja has outside.

Bringing Warne and McGrath's absence as if it has some bearing on Kumble's bowling is nonsensical.

Once again, stop using your fanfiction as some sort of general consensus. I don't get it, do you actually want to care about cricket or do you want to write a fantasy story here? None of this makes any sort of sense and you should feel embarrassed to even think about typing this up for other people to read.

Kumble being considered a great bowler isn't fanfiction nor is Jadeja not being considered one.

 

[Xix2565]

Sure so the conversation we should be having is whether Jadeja allround value is more than Kumble extra spin value, which actually I am willing to concede assuming Jadeja plays more tests. But I don't think you are willing to concede Kumble is a better spinner.


Clarify please. My point is that Kumble in the 2000s faced flatter pitches and tougher batting lineups away from home. You don't seem to be challenging that.


Winning series is a team effort, especially against an ATG team better than any Jadeja faced. We can just judge Kumble based on his own bowling contribution there, along with in England and WI, which is considerably more than anything Jadeja has outside.

Bringing Warne and McGrath's absence as if it has some bearing on Kumble's bowling is nonsensical.


Kumble being considered a great bowler isn't fanfiction nor is Jadeja not being considered one.

I think you don't care about the allround value and haven't properly shown Kumble's superiority beyond citing wickets taken and analysis by checklist. So it's hard to even take you seriously when you don't seem to take things seriously enough to put in effort anyway.

Once again, please stop using your fanfiction as an argument or a reflection of reality. It's really grating to see idiocy repeated over and over again.

 

[subshakerz]

I think you don't care about the allround value and haven't properly shown Kumble's superiority beyond citing wickets taken and analysis by checklist. So it's hard to even take you seriously when you don't seem to take things seriously enough to put in effort anyway.

Once again, please stop using your fanfiction as an argument or a reflection of reality. It's really grating to see idiocy repeated over and over again.

Ok so that just all ad hominem, no argument. Let's end it here then.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Nah keep going

 

[honestbharani]

stop using your fanfiction

*hatefiction

 

[h_hurricane]

Kumble bowling with less bowling support is certainly a point in his favor.

However, it is balanced out by the fact that he also benefited from score board pressure produced by ATG batsmen in his team. Remembering some of his good performances overseas in early 2000s came when the batsmen put up 600+, 700+ etc. Jadeja hasn't had the same privilege. The slip fielding in Kumble's times was also way better. Laxman, Dravid and 90s Azhar wipe the floor with anyone who is around these days.

 

[subshakerz]

Kumble bowling with less bowling support is certainly a point in his favor.

However, it is balanced out by the fact that he also benefited from score board pressure produced by ATG batsmen in his team. Remembering some of his good performances overseas in early 2000s came when the batsmen put up 600+, 700+ etc. Jadeja hasn't had the same privilege. The slip fielding in Kumble's times was also way better. Laxman, Dravid and 90s Azhar wipe the floor with anyone who is around these days.

The scoreboard thing cuts both ways because Kumble had to bowl on some absolute roads in England and Australia in the 2000s.

Jadeja also has DRS and let's not underestimate that.

 

[Xix2565]

I just don't see any point in simply harping on bowling comparisons which haven't been elaborated enough beyond more wickets/SENA wickets when one of the players here can also bat as well. Kumble would have to be far, far superior as a bowler to be a clear favourite, like on par with Murali/Warne.

 

[_00_deathscar]

I just don't see any point in simply harping on bowling comparisons which haven't been elaborated enough beyond more wickets/SENA wickets when one of the players here can also bat as well. Kumble would have to be far, far superior as a bowler to be a clear favourite, like on par with Murali/Warne.

Yep, which is the point that he doesn’t get. No one is picking Jadeja over those two even with his all round ability and even if he averaged a mythical 50 with the bat,
Kumble with the ball, just isn’t far enough ahead - if at all - to be picked ahead of a far superior all round package.

He concedes that Ashwin is roughly the equal of Kumble, and when there is only 1 slot for selection, the selectors pick Jadeja.
And Kumble doesn’t have the batting of Ashwin either.

 

[subshakerz]

Yep, which is the point that he doesn’t get. No one is picking Jadeja over those two even with his all round ability and even if he averaged a mythical 50 with the bat,
Kumble with the ball, just isn’t far enough ahead - if at all - to be picked ahead of a far superior all round package.

Except I have conceded that point of Jadeja's all-round package again and again.

My contention is that Jadeja hasn't played enough away from home and overall in his career to merit the comparison yet with established greats with very long careers.

What nobody in this thread has done yet is show how 67 tests in the current era is sufficient when your average class cricketer easily crosses 100 tests.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Except I have conceded that point of Jadeja's all-round package again and again.

My contention is that Jadeja hasn't played enough away from home and overall in his career to merit the comparison yet with established greats with very long careers.

What nobody in this thread has done yet is show how 67 tests in the current era is sufficient when your average class cricketer easily crosses 100 tests.

Is the question who has had the better career? Or who is the better cricketer?

 

[subshakerz]

Is the question who has had the better career? Or who is the better cricketer?

They are connected. Performance over the career determines the better cricketer.

I don't mind anyone saying that Jadeja is on course for overtaking Kumble as a cricketer. But it is premature to declare him as such.

 

[Coronis]

I’d pick Broad in an ATG Indian XI personally. Unless you’re only wanting Kapil and Bumrah as your fast bowlers, but hey, that’s your choice.

 

[ma1978]

I just think by definition someone who plays a frontline role (Kumble or Kapil for that matter) over a long period is worth more than someone who plays two secondary roles, however good they may be at them.

 

[Xix2565]

Jadeja is also a frontline level bowler in certain conditions, and gives a team room to play more bowlers without losing too much batting. Kumble and Kapil frontlining was more a product of the lack of support rather than anything to do with their quality. That they did it longer is some credit to them. If Kumble or Kapil were playing now they wouldn't be playing as much simply because the team doesn't need to pick bowlers that way anymore, since the bowling attack is deeper and more varied.

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja is also a frontline level bowler in certain conditions, and gives a team room to play more bowlers without losing too much batting. Kumble and Kapil frontlining was more a product of the lack of support rather than anything to do with their quality. That they did it longer is some credit to them. If Kumble or Kapil were playing now they wouldn't be playing as much simply because the team doesn't need to pick bowlers that way anymore, since the bowling attack is deeper and more varied.

Yeah that's the thing. Great players are pretty much frontline selections wherever they go, even in conditions less suitable for them. I think the hesitation from the pro-Kumble side is to give the nod to a cricketer who wouldn't be a confirmed place based on either skill alone. I find it hard to believe that either Kumble or Kapil the bowler would be dropped anywhere, even in the present set up.

However, to be fair, I think Jadeja is fast approaching being a frontline lower order bat with a confirmed place at 6/7 so his bowling can either be second bowler or fifth bowler level depending on where he plays. I think 2-3 more years of consistent performance home and away with the bat should get him there.

 

[Xix2565]

I don't think Kumble is a frontline option everywhere he goes overall though. He was only one because of the situation around him.