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Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Again, while certainly accepting of the opinion that Lara > Sachin, the problem I have with this very particular methodology is that it is one very specific bowler (and thus, for Sachin, a much smaller sample size than for Lara), and again, ignoring the other supposedly world class ATG bowler that the very same team had!

While there is merit to the idea (testing vs the best), it's a very limited test instead of an overall performance of how the player did if all we include is just the one bowler, as good as he was (Steyn was arguably better anyway, and Ambrose and Donald weren't far behind if at all).

Conversely, I showed in an earlier post that if you take the top 10 bowlers of Sachin's time (a MUCH larger and varied sample size) and see his average vs them, it's certainly lower than his overall average, but not by much. And in his 1993-2002 peak period, it's around about his overall average (though a dip from his 63 or so peak around that period).
The point being, Lara's average is around about the same as Sachin's when you apply that exact filter for him (removing Steyn, because he wasn't playing when Lara was, and obviously his own countrymen, and adding in Kumble instead - therefore an easy argument to be made that this is already therefore considerably weaker...).

So in short, against the very best bowling Sachin faced, his average is the same as Lara's is.
Against a very specific bowler (or two?), it's lower. Which, without going into too much detail, this also suggests its higher vs another bowler or two than Lara's is.
I don’t see this as as much about Lara vs Tendulkar as it’s about stats of Tendulkar and other Indian batsmen being inflated because of several attacks they didn’t have to face often, especially in the 90s. Have seen the same logic being used against Sanga, Viv and other great players to rate them slightly lower. Nobody had as many issues then.

The other world class Aussie bowler being ignored was present in 1998 when Australia toured India, do you consider that 1998 Australian attack a world class attack because of his presence? If you do, then you are free to consider performances against that attack as performances against a great attack too. I have no issues.

Regarding Lara being luckier than Tendulkar for not facing Ambrose+Walsh and facing Kumble instead, well Tendulkar faced Ambrose+Walsh in 6 innings - that’s some sample size for you. And Tendulkar faced them in conditions where Navjot Sidhu managed to score 200, and many other Indian batsmen made merry too. It’s hard to imagine Lara being troubled in those conditions. Lastly Lara’s average against India is so pathetic that I doubt if he would have done any worse against Ambrose+Walsh. Your exchange probably hurt him statistically more than it benefited him.
 
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ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Indian batsmen almost always faced South Africa at full strength. And they were possibly the best all round pace attack in that generation. If we think Tendulkar kept missing McGrath, assess him on what he did against SA. He did better against SA when playing in SA btw.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
I don’t see this as as much about Lara vs Tendulkar as it’s about stats of Tendulkar and other Indian batsmen being inflated because of several attacks they didn’t have to face often, especially in the 90s. Have seen the same logic being used against Sanga, Viv and other great players to rate them slightly lower. Nobody had as many issues then.

The other world class Aussie bowler being ignored was present in 1998 when Australia toured India, do you consider that 1998 Australian attack a world class attack because of his presence? If you do, then you are free to consider performances against that attack as performances against a great attack too. I have no issues.

Regarding Lara being luckier than Tendulkar for not facing Ambrose+Walsh and facing Kumble instead, well Tendulkar faced Ambrose+Walsh in 6 innings - that’s some sample size for you. And Tendulkar faced them in conditions where Navjot Sidhu managed to score 200, and many other Indian batsmen made merry too. It’s hard to imagine Lara being troubled in those conditions. Lastly Lara’s average against India is so pathetic that I doubt if he would have done any worse against Ambrose+Walsh. Your exchange probably hurt him statistically more than it benefited him.
There are so many ways to slice this.

One way is to say only tests involving Ambrose AND Walsh, which I understand completely.
Another is to say that if at least one of them was present, along with Ian Bishop, then it's fair game because it's at least a challenge (Benjamin Franklyn or one of those spuds gave us a challenge anyway!). Of course the former PLUS Bishop is stronger than the latter, but the latter is no easy feat either.

And the latter was 12 innings across 8 matches, with an average of 62.8 (57.8 in the Windies).

There's also the little issue of Dale Steyn missing from the equation - arguably the best bowler of all time, whom Lara didn't have to face (again, through no fault of his own). But Sachin did fairly well against Steyn.

For the record, Ambrose has a poor average vs India - probably precisely because he got slapped around, why is this not held against him? On the other hand, Walsh has an excellent average vs India.

Again, my issue with this is that it's SERIOUS cherry picking. I completely understand the argument that Lara was more of a monster in individual series/had a higher peak than Sachin. I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with that, at all.
I'm not on for "Sachin averages X when McGrath and only McGrath plays, but Lara averages higher, but we won't account for Lara's or Sachin's averages vs the other best bowlers of his time"

The deeper you go into this, the more you start getting into really silly #AussieExcuses stuff like "Oh but Warne wasn't in form" and "Oh he had to eat dal because he ran out of baked beans that day so obviously his performance wasn't very good" territory.

The 90s Indian batsmen can't have made too merry by the way.
It is well documented Sachin had the highest average of the 90s - at 58.00 - for a considerable sample size. The only other Indian batsmen who had good to great averages were Kambli (prodigy turned out to not be so but he was on fire for a bit, plus low sample size), Dravid, Ganguly, Azharuddin (fair for all of them) and Sidhu (flattering him a bit I'll give you that one).

You're making it sound like Manjrekar and Prabhakar and co were all averaging in the mid to late 40s or even 50s.

This isn't the 00s, where you have a fair point.
 
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Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Indian batsmen almost always faced South Africa at full strength. And they were possibly the best all round pace attack in that generation. If we think Tendulkar kept missing McGrath, assess him on what he did against SA. He did better against SA when playing in SA btw.
100% Agreed. Not saying that Indian team NEVER faced tough attacks in the 90s, it’s just that they didn’t do it anywhere as often as other teams did. And IIRC all Indian batsmen (including Tendulkar) have very modest averages in 30s against South Africa in the 90s which was when South African pace attack was the toughest.
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
100% Agreed. Not saying that Indian team NEVER faced tough attacks in the 90s, it’s just that they didn’t do it anywhere as often as other teams did. And IIRC all Indian batsmen (including Tendulkar) have very modest averages in 30s against South Africa in the 90s which was when South African pace attack was the toughest.
South Africa also has generally been lower scoring in Tests during that period and the proceeding decades as well IIRC, with more bowler-friendly (and pace-friendly) conditions than Australia. Would make sense if the Indian batsmen struggled there. I would expect only England to be a bigger challenge.
 

TheJediBrah

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Yeah true in the 90s SA would have been the biggest pace challenge. I was skipping ahead a decade or 2 with England.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
100% Agreed. Not saying that Indian team NEVER faced tough attacks in the 90s, it’s just that they didn’t do it anywhere as often as other teams did. And IIRC all Indian batsmen (including Tendulkar) have very modest averages in 30s against South Africa in the 90s which was when South African pace attack was the toughest.
True, but turns out the delta in averages between 90s and 00s was much lower in SA than AUS.

Batting Averages
1990s
2000s
Delta
in U.A.E.
-​
26.76
-
in Pakistan
29.28
35.04
5.76
in West Indies
27.29
32.28
4.99
in Zimbabwe
27.22
31.24
4.02
in India
30.96
34.89
3.93
in Sri Lanka
27.66
30.50
2.84
in Australia
31.44
34.20
2.76
in South Africa
28.95
30.49
1.54
in England
31.41
32.08
0.67
in New Zealand
29.70
30.04
0.34
in Bangladesh
31.42
28.86
-2.56
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
SA has never been an easy place to bat, and not likely ever will. To many different types of pitches that tend to offer different bowlers something throughout the 5 days. Occasional rare pancake of a deck but infrequent.
 

TheJediBrah

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Difference of first two columns.
Not seeing the relevance to the discussion of pointing it out myself

better question is how do Bangladesh have an average for 1990s when they played their first Test in 2000. I can only assume someone other than Bangladesh played Test(s) there? Or for some reason the year 2000 counts as the 1990s
 

Magrat Garlick

Global Moderator
Not seeing the relevance to the discussion of pointing it out myself

better question is how do Bangladesh have an average for 1990s when they played their first Test in 2000. I can only assume someone other than Bangladesh played Test(s) there? Or for some reason the year 2000 counts as the 1990s

A somewhat bizarrely constructed Test, this
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member

A somewhat bizarrely constructed Test, this
That's not bizarre. That's something of a memory all subcontinent fans have. Asian test championship trophy. It's when Akhtar announced himself by taking 2 in 2 (Dravid and Tendulkar). It's where Akram took 2 hattricks in 2 successive tests against Sri Lanka.
 
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