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Rank the 10,000 club

pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
Warne vs India is a no-brainer. Warne was a non-factor against India on most occasions.
Only two occasions where I recall him being genuinely good against India was were in two ODIs
1996 World Cup match in Mumbai. His first over went for 10 runs, and his next 6 overs (to Tendulkar & Manjerakar) went for 11 runs. India were chasing a large total
And another ODI match in 1993 or 1994 in Sharjah - Vinod Kambi hit Warne for 20+ runs in the final over, but until then Warne troubled Indian batsmen a lot (especially Sidhu)

Rest of the time Indian batsmen ate him for lunch.
 

pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
Those are interesting facts you point out; I hadn't noticed those. Although in whatever little opportunities Tendulkar got against McGrath, he did fine apart from lacking a dominant series.

Tendulkar in Donald's presence was weaker. I don't give too much weight to against Akram because it never looked to me like Akram was going to put Tendulkar in much trouble whenever they met including many limited over games.
Apologize for briefly changing the topic back from Warne. Just to clarify, I didn't notice these facts because I did some stat-digging to put Tendulkar down. I was enamored with quality fast bowling after having watched cricket in late 1970s and especially 1980s. It is the main reason I follow the sport. The only time I really watched batsmen like Lara or Tendulkar or Waugh was when they came up against a great fast bowling attack. That's why I know on top of my head because I watched very little of Tendulkar simply because (comparatively) he rarely came up against great fast bowling. And whenever he came up, while he never ever had a massive series failure like for example Dravid did in Australia in 1999, I never recalled him having a stand out series either.

There is one more thing I need to tell you because you bring this up constantly about how a batsman was never troubled by a great fast bowler therefore it wouldn't matter. That's not true. Effect of a great fast bowler (with good supporting attack) on a batsman need not always be direct. It is not necessary that the bowler dismisses the batsman on majority of the occasions. McGrath dismissed Lara 15 times, but it was 15 times in 46 innings! In fact, McGrath got Tendulkar with the same frequency as well (only 6 times in 18 innings). Even Donald got Tendulkar only 5 times in 20+ innings. So if you look at the whole picture, dismissals - even against bowlers that trouble batsmen - are not always as frequent as they are perceived to be.

However there is simply no denying the impact that McGrath's presence had on both Lara's and Tendulkar's figures whenever they came up against him. It is not a mere coincidence that average of Tendulkar collapses from 70s in McGrath's absence to 30s in McGrath's presence. Similar collapse is seen for Lara & other Indian batsmen too. It need not be that McGrath gets them each and every time. They can even get out cheaply without facing a single delivery from McGrath. Aussie attack can run through or trouble batsmen at the other end, or McGrath can stifle scoring so much that batsmen are forced to take more risks against other bowlers. There are several factors that come into play.

Converse question also needs to be asked here. How well, Lara or Kallis or many other batsmen of 90's/00's era, would have done in Australia if they faced "McGrath-less" Aussie attacks on 30+ occasions, and if they had to face McGrath just 6 times (that too only in Adelaide, Sydney & Melbourne)? I am certain they would have made merry just like Indian batsmen did. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to belittle Indian batsmen here. Batsmen just do their best against whatever attack/conditions they face.

Lara averages nearly 70 against Australia without McGrath. I don't see any reason why he would not have done extremely well in the imagined scenario.


Quality of opposition obviously matters as I said. But as you said, 6/30 innings isn't a lot at all and certainly not enough of a sample size to draw a conclusion from the numbers alone. Fwiw average in X country can be misleading too. Border played 3 tests in SA in 1992 and averaged in the 30s. Does it mean anything? Not at all. It's the same with average vs x bowler unless we're talking something like Anderson vs Warner where they face off regularly. What makes it even more flawed is that a major part of batting is playing out the tough bowler and getting runs at the other end. Also I recall Lara getting dropped very early on in that 213 off McGrath. In a 6 innings sample size that can blow up the numbers significantly. It's just a crap stat in general that tells you nothing.

McGrath made the Australian attack what it was though. There's absolutely no question about that.

Have no reason to disagree with all the facts you've put forward re: Tendulkar v Lara though. It's just the particular average v x bowler stat I dislike.
Tendulkar played 18 innings against McGrath overall and averages in 30s.
6 innings were specifically against McGrath in Australia.
18 is still a decent number (although still much less than Lara's 46 innings with McGrath in the opposite side).

In any case, my fundamental point is Tendulkar didn't face great attacks anywhere as often as some of his contemporaries did. He never faced peak Wasim-Waqar, played just 1 series (6 innings) against Ambrose-Walsh, played very little against McGrath. This is a fact.

To my mind this has to be factored when stats of Tendulkar are compared with those of his contemporaries. I was attempting to bring this out when I was making "average vs bowler" stat. Yes, I agree with you that this stat could be even more misleading because of very small sample size. But I don't know how else to can you make the comparisons genuinely equal.

Aussie attacks/conditions Tendulkar frequently faced in his career cannot be equated with the Aussie attacks/conditions that Lara faced in his career, even though their eras completely overlap.
 

Arachnodouche

International Captain
I think Warne suffers if you only watch highlight reels of his bowling against India in India. As far as I remember, there always used to be heightened anticipation when he came on to bowl and few overs were entirely uneventful. My impression is he lost in the battle of margins happening in between the many gorgeous shots played by the Indians. Which isn't saying one thing or another, really, only that he wasn't a 100% dismal versus India.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
The attacks they faced in South Africa were likely comparable. Their output was also comparable.

I repeat though that I have no reason to believe that Akram would have been a special threat to Tendulkar. Also just looking up great names on the scorecard is not sufficient to judge how good the attack was. There were times when Zaheer and Sreesanth put up a very stiff challenge to batting teams.
 

pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
The attacks they faced in South Africa were likely comparable. Their output was also comparable.

I repeat though that I have no reason to believe that Akram would have been a special threat to Tendulkar. Also just looking up great names on the scorecard is not sufficient to judge how good the attack was. There were times when Zaheer and Sreesanth put up a very stiff challenge to batting teams.
Wasim needn't be a threat to Tendulkar. He (or Waqar) can dismiss/trouble batsmen at the other end. Pressure on Tendulkar would automatically increase. Likelihood of Tendulkar scoring big or having a grand series with little support from others is very less. I don't think Tendulkar has had series like Lara where he averaged very high (90+) and rest of the batsmen averaged really low (< 30).
Main question is - would Tendulkar's career average be affected - directly or indirectly? I am certain it would have been.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Wasim needn't be a threat to Tendulkar. He (or Waqar) can dismiss/trouble batsmen at the other end. Pressure on Tendulkar would automatically increase. Likelihood of Tendulkar scoring big or having a grand series with little support from others is very less. I don't think Tendulkar has had series like Lara where he averaged very high (90+) and rest of the batsmen averaged really low (< 30).
Main question is - would Tendulkar's career average be affected - directly or indirectly? I am certain it would have been.
And if Wasim/Waqar didn't trouble the Indian batsmen in this hypothetical, it would be because they were past their best in the 2nd half of the 90s. And on it goes.
 

pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
And if Wasim/Waqar didn't trouble the Indian batsmen in this hypothetical, it would be because they were past their best in the 2nd half of the 90s. And on it goes.
No need to be sarcastic. I am not here to target Indians. I give credit where credit is due. I just feel 90s Indian team didn't have the heart that Kohli's team has, especially against Pakistan with Wasim-Waqar (Ganguly was the one who started the change). Outside of Tendulkar, I don't think rest of the Indian batting line up in early-mid 90s had the skills to deal with peak Wasim-Waqar in Test cricket. It's not an outrageous assumption by any means.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Outside of Tendulkar, I don't think rest of the Indian batting line up in early-mid 90s had the skills to deal with peak Wasim-Waqar in Test cricket.
Rest of the batting lineup didn't have the skills. Therefore Tendulkar would have averaged lower and therefore that must have been or must be held against him?
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
As has been noted in this thread, Tendulkar's performance did dip against McGrath and Donald. It did not dip against Ambrose, Walsh, Pollock and Steyn. There is no basis to think that Wasim/Waqar would have had impact on Tendulkar like the former set rather than the latter. It's just a hypothetical. One can extrapolate from limited overs. McGrath and Donald had something on Tendulkar in shorter formats too; Wasim/Waqar nothing really.

But then why go into all these hypotheticals when there is largest sample of innings of any test batsmen to work with.
 
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h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
A lot of hypotheticals these days.
1) India was lucky not to be up against Warne in 2003-04
2) Wasim and Waqar would have brought down Tendulkar's statistics.
3) Ponting would have done well in India in his prime.

Never mind that when the battles actually happened outside this hypothetical period, it did not work out that way.
 

pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
Fanboy ganging up has begun as usual, eh?

Ultimately it is the averages, isn't it? Tendulkar was rarely dismissed by Donald against South Africa, 5 times in 20+ innings isn't a big deal, why did he average in low 30s then? Same thing with McGrath too. Surely how rest of the Indian team wilted against these pacemen also had an impact on Tendulkar's scores against them (and the only time Tendulkar averaged 50+ against McGrath, VVS Laxman & Dravid had a fabulous series).
It will be held against Tendulkar as long as his average is low.
Of the 13 innings Lara has played against Wasim/Waqar, he was dismissed by Wasim only twice, and Waqar thrice, but his average in 30s against them is held against him, isn't it?
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Drop the victim complex if you want to have a discussion. As I said before, spend more time here and your will find this is not your YouTube or Facebook comments kinda forum. It's the popular and uncontested opinion on this forum that Tendulkar is not a clear number 2 batsman ever for instance, something you are unlikely to find elsewhere.

You explicitly mentioned rest of Indian batting didn't have skill which basically implies that your teammates skill set determines how you must be rated. Don't know what to make of that. It's interesting nonetheless that McGrath dismissed Tendulkar in only a fraction of innings and yet has a lower average similar to Lara. I would attribute that to what mental state facing a tough spell might put a batsman or to how tightly opposition is able to execute their strategy with a good pack or a good lead bowler. I don't know about correlating it to performance of others in the team.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Of the 13 innings Lara has played against Wasim/Waqar, he was dismissed by Wasim only twice, and Waqar thrice, but his average in 30s against them is held against him, isn't it?
I didn't even know this, forget about holding it against him.
 

pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
Drop the victim complex if you you want to have a discussion. As I said before, spend more time here and your will find this is not your YouTube or Facebook comments kinda forum. It's the popular and uncontested opinion on this forum that Tendulkar is not a clear number 2 batsman ever for instance, something you are unlikely to find elsewhere.

You explicitly mentioned rest of Indian batting didn't have skill which basically implies that your teammates skill set determines how you must be rated. Don't know what to make of that. It's interesting nonetheless that McGrath dismissed Tendulkar in only a fraction of innings and yet has a lower average similar to Lara. I would attribute that to what mental state facing a tough spell might put a batsman or to how tightly opposition is able to execute their strategy with a good pack or a good lead bowler. I don't know about correlating it to performance of others in the team.
Ain't no victim complex. Been here for more than a decade (when Rob used to post here before he started uploading his cricketing videos on YouTube, even you weren't here back then). Just because I don't post here, it doesn't mean I know nothing about this forum. Tendulkar/Indian fanboys ganging up here is a reality (I don't mind it though). Yes for sure this forum is much more sane than other forums.

I explicitly mentioned skills of rest of the batsmen because Tendulkar's great series performances have almost always come with one or more of his teammates having a great series too. So if the rest of the batsmen fail in a series, likelihood of Tendulkar having a great series is very very less.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Pardus man, I couldn't help taking a look at your posting history. Last time you were in an active debate was DoG's top 100 ranking thread and your comments were again on Tendulkar and your were constantly wanting a fanboy meltdown or complaining about hyper sensitivity of Sachin fans when nothing of that sort was warranted. And I gave you this exact advice then to spend more time here.

If you have a single agenda to push you are not going to contribute meaningfully to what makes this forum great. Sort yourself out.
 
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_00_deathscar

International Regular
I don't think you'll find a single 'fanboy' or whatever you want to call them (Indian?) on here who would argue vehemently with Lara being rated ahead of Sachin. It's a fair opinion - both great players, it could swing one way or that. Some Indians (many even) pick Lara ahead of Sachin themselves.
It's the BS arguments we're disagreeing with.

On the other hand, the Aussies throw an absolute fit when someone suggests Warne (a player who has SERIOUS holes in his record by the way) might be a tad bit overrated...
 

vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I explicitly mentioned skills of rest of the batsmen because Tendulkar's great series performances have almost always come with one or more of his teammates having a great series too. So if the rest of the batsmen fail in a series, likelihood of Tendulkar having a great series is very very less.
How often does this happen in any batsman's career? Anyway, Tendulkar has plenty of instances where he stood out head and shoulders above the rest of his teammates





 

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