Rank South Africa's 5 famous pace bowling all-rounders from the 90s

[StephenZA]

Yeah I know, wasn't meaning to imply that you did. Just that despite me being a massive Kallis fanboy, the "anchor of the line-up" argument only goes so far - particularly when you take Lara into consideration.

I do think that Kallis in an Aus/India batting line-up is a fascinating thought experiment. With quality batsmen around him throughout his career, I wonder how his career would have turned out.

I think he would have developed faster with a more experienced international team around him, and I think he would have been given enough confidence to be a more aggressive batsmen from earlier in his career. As a youngster he was aggressive, it was when he hit international level and had so much pressure put on him, in an inexperienced team, that he became less aggressive.

 

[SeamUp]

Kallis always gets hard done by when these sort of discussions come up because he did not dominate attacks; but people do forgot that he played in a very different team than that of many other greats. For the first 1/2 of his career, outside G Kirsten there was just about nobody of true quality in the SA batting line-up, that created a scenario that Kallis (and the team) valued his wicket very highly and he took almost no risks because his wickets was just about it in the SA top 6. He also started his career 3 years after SA returned to international cricket.

If you look at his career, his first 5 years (20 -25 age) he avg 40 with a SR of 36. Next 5 years, he avg 67 at SR 48. last 8 years he avg 54 at a SR of 55.

He basically carried the SA batting between 2000 and 2005, which is when the team started building into that great team, largely off the back of his batting and a great bowling attack. You can clearly see how his career and SR followed the teams slow improvement, once he got the experience combined with playing with better quality players in a better rounded team his dominance and contribution just increases.

I would not talk about him being better than Pointing, Lara, Tendulkar but I do wish people would not just consider him selfish because he did not take risks first part of his career. He could not, SA batting could not handle a risk taking Kallis.

I agree. Although I would add Cullinan to that. Outside a certain Shane Warne he was a batting genius when he wanted to be and it was often. Herschelle averaged above 40 in test cricket which fell dramatically at the end and Cronje/Rhodes just had technical deficiencies but scored crucial runs & had a 35+ average in an era that had so many bowling greats. Considering all that - they were just never international batting greats but came as a package with captaincy/seamers/fielding.

Kallis had all the shots and he was so perfect in every shot it was text book and that includes appreciating a stone wall defence (front and back).

I think he was selected on gut feel by the selectors and Woolmer very early. What he did at 17,18,19 was stuff of folklore.

I think it was more a case of Kallis learning on the job really initially and his game plan was to be solid at 3 (which was a directive for the team) and setting a platform where he could often come in 1 for nothing on pitches doing a bit.

 

[vcs]

I feel like Philander helped that SA team go from being very good and top-3 in the World (2007-11) to clear No.1 (2011-2014).

Morkel was a very good first change bowler but not quite good enough to partner Steyn with the new ball and help him destroy lineups. Alternatively, a world class spinner would have done the job, but they never quite managed to find one.

 

[mr_mister]

Even though Klusener and McMillan didn't have much crossover,(last in/first out plus they kinda played a similar role in the side) I found this scorecard where all 5 played(and most got runs) in the same test


Full Scorecard of Australia vs South Africa 3rd Test 1998 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com


to go with another all-rounder Symcox at 11, this has to easily be the best tail I've ever seen. What an interesting side. Test centurions down to 11 and 6 genuine bowling options. Sick team.

 

[StephenZA]

Got to be the closest score card epitomising SA teams of the 90's where the last four batsmen scored as many runs as the first 6.

 

[SeamUp]

Pat Symcox used to make me laugh. There were no subtleties to the bloke especially when he batted. 54 off 42 balls at number 11

Lance Klusener's batting talent came from no where. Used to bat 11 for Natal and similar when he started for SA and bowled 150kph.

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah. I feel in ODIs though it was close to a perfect side. Cronje and Rhodes, who I spose were batting weaknesses in the test sides really shone as ODI batsman, with fairly standard averages and impressive strike rates. To go with Kallis, Gibbs and Kirsten up top plus all the other all-round options, they were really well rounded. I can see why they got a reputation as chokers for failing to make a WC final from 96-03

 

[vcs]

Yeah. I feel in ODIs though it was close to a perfect side. Cronje and Rhodes, who I spose were batting weaknesses in the test sides really shone as ODI batsman, with fairly standard averages and impressive strike rates. To go with Kallis, Gibbs and Kirsten up top plus all the other all-round options, they were really well rounded. I can see why they got a reputation as chokers for failing to make a WC final from 96-03

Yeah as an ODI team they were genuinely fantastic with a good case for being World No. 1, despite a couple of famous WC failures. In Tests, Australia were clearly ahead because of Warne and better batting.

EDIT : And Gilchrist

 

[trundler]

Why is Kirsten so underrated

 

[StephenZA]

Why is Kirsten so underrated

When did Kirsten become underrated? He is accepted as our best or 2nd best bat for most of the late 90's early 2000's.

 

[trundler]

When did Kirsten become underrated? He is accepted as our best or 2nd best bat for most of the late 90's early 2000's.

He's just never mentioned when you think of great batsmen of the 90s. Guys like Anwar and Azhar get more recognition than him. Very much like Flower IMO. I wonder why.

 

[StephenZA]

He's just never mentioned when you think of great batsmen of the 90s. Guys like Anwar and Azhar get more recognition than him. Very much like Flower IMO. I wonder why.

Not spending enough time around the SA supporters on the forum ... mentioned often. Even in my previous post I talk about Kirsten and Kallis as the only true great batsmen in the SA team of the 90's.

 

[trundler]

Not spending enough time around the SA supporters on the forum ... mentioned often. Even in my previous post I talk about Kirsten and Kallis as the only true great batsmen in the SA team of the 90's.

Fair. He isn't among the general public though. Would still say he doesn't get enough credit.

 

[StephenZA]

Fair. He isn't among the general public though. Would still say he doesn't get enough credit.

Not sure if you mean general SA public supporters or general cricket supporters? Amongst people interested in SA cricket he is mentioned.......

Amongst the forum in general, it is easy to understand... 50% Indian supporters, 50% English supporters, 50% Australian supporters. 1% SA supporters...... +2% other and *****

 

[trundler]

Not sure if you mean general SA public supporters or general cricket supporters? Amongst people interested in SA cricket he is mentioned.......

Amongst the forum in general, it is easy to understand... 50% Indian supporters, 50% English supporters, 50% Australian supporters. 1% SA supporters...... +2% other and *****

General cricket supporters, I meant. I'll just say I could be wrong and end this lol

 

[mr_mister]

I'll always remember Kirsten for at one stage having the South African record high score in both tests and ODIs, 275 and 188* (though the test score was tied with Cullinan)


Other than Hayden and Sehwag, has anyone else held this record?

 

[SeamUp]

Wasn't Gary the first to score a test hundred against each playing nation ?

 

[StephenZA]

Wasn't Gary the first to score a test hundred against each playing nation ?

Yes, I believe so.

 

[mr_mister]

Yes, I believe so.

Kinda an interesting record. Steve Waugh held it in 1999 when he tonned up against Zimbabwe and India before Bangas got test status, at this stage Kirsten was missing Zimbabwe


But a few years later he got his ton against Zim and Bangas before Waugh did coz he played against Bangas before Waugh did


now neither hold the record as Afghanistan and Ireland are around


Wonder who are all the holders of this record through history?

 

[Bolo]

Yeah as an ODI team they were genuinely fantastic with a good case for being World No. 1, despite a couple of famous WC failures. In Tests, Australia were clearly ahead because of Warne and better batting.

EDIT : And Gilchrist

Top wicket takers RSA vs AUS from readmission until 2008:

Warne 5.4 wpm@24 (130)
Mcgrath 3.4 wpm @27 (57)
Donald 3.8 wpm @31 (53)
...
Paul Adams 3 wpm@39 (15)

All the quicks struggled- Donald and Mcgrath were probably the best, not just the highest wicket takers. I don't think any quick who played in more than 1 series managed a sub 30 average and > 3.5 wpm, and most were just dismal.

Spin was the big difference (at least until around 2002, after which AUS were just better at everything). Warne (+ effective support) bowling at RSA bats who couldn't play spin vs inept RSA spinners bowling at quality AUS.