Pathan has come of age!

[Shoaib]

IKP will come back strongly against English team, the pitches in England will suit him and he will trouble most of the English batsmen.

Oh yes,he'll definitly do it but only in his dreams.

 

[GladiatrsInBlue]

Oh yes,he'll definitly do it but only in his dreams.

NO, he will do that in England in broad daylight, not in some deams, as he has all the talent and potential to do that.

But i think IKP is going to be a lesser threath to England than Shabbir Ahmad who has again got clearance for his chicking by UWA. The guy has so far chucked 46 test wickets !!

 

[Shoaib]

But i think IKP is going to be a lesser threath to England than Shabbir Ahmad who has again got clearance for his chicking by UWA.

Don't be jealous of our great fast bowlers.

 

[PY]

You two, give it a rest.

 

[Richard]

Maybe because the seamers picked for India don't have the raw material to compete with the best? One's bone-thin, while another resembles one of Snow White's dwarfs, and none of them have any pace. Is it so hard to find a quality fast bowler in the country?

With a population as large as India's, that shouldn't be a problem.

They need to look at who's likely to be a good pick, and also watch the domestic matches with an eye on pacers. Reporters seem to be more active here than the BCCI or most former players. You never know where you can find that long-lost player you need. but you have to look around. The BCCI think there are only five seamers worth picking. They were responsible for playing Srinath well past his best (he chose to retire after the disappointing 2002 WI tour) and wouldn't have brought in Irfan and Balaji but for injuries to key bowlers, and now don't want to drop them now that they're gone. Not to mention, their warped perspective about Indian cricket just has Mumbai, Tamil Nadu, Baroda and Delhi, and maybe Punjab.

Then there are these old relics, who want all promising young fast bowlers to concentrate on seamand swing. Any hopes of an Indian tearaway emerging fall flat when they do their job. Sure, seam and swing help, but there is no substitute for raw pace. It works everywhere. It adds attack power to the bowling lineup, which exists in the best, but is missing in India's. And I mean attack power, not just extra skill.

Raw pace doesn't work anywhere - no decent batsmen are troubled by pace alone. The only way to prosper as a seamer on proper Indian pitches is to use the new-ball to it's full with conventional swing, start reverse-swinging it as soon as poss, and use the technique of cutters.
Attacking power is provided by the ability to move the ball in all conditions, not pace. Pace is just a useful extra. It makes any movement more deadly still.
What I find most amazing is that, in a country as highly populated as India, there aren't sufficiently talented players around to produce lots of quality seamers. There's either a) something wrong with the scouting (although of course it's impossible to scan every healthy youngster), b) a lack of enthusiasm for the desire to bowl seam-up rather than bat or bowl spin or c) something wrong with the coaching in that no-one is around to make promise into skill.

 

[Richard]

Or if IKP destroys English batters with high quality batting, something you seems to think its impossible.

Assuming you mean bowling, no, it's not impossible, but he'll sure have had to make massive improvements since the Pakistan tour for it to happen.

Even before the just concluded Ashes series, English bowlers were being mocked by Aussies players, doubts were being express on the abilities of Harmison,Flintoff and Hoggard, so much so that someone even labelled one of them as a good "net bowler"!!! But lok what they did to Aussie team!!!

No, Hoggard was labelled a "net bowler compared to McGrath" - which proved if slightly off-course, not utterly absurd.
I can't recall too many Australians doubting Flintoff (nor Harmison for that matter - I did, and I was justified), though.
And it's that rather silly thing again - something happened with someone, so it must happen with another with vaguely similar circumstances.

IKP will come back strongly against English team, the pitches in England will suit him and he will trouble most of the English batsmen.

Well he's got a year's wait and a lot of cricket to get through without getting dropped before he tours England.
And don't assume the pitches here will suit him. England hasn't been quite the green-seamer it's always portrayed as for the last 4 seasons.

 

[Richard]

But i think IKP is going to be a lesser threath to England than Shabbir Ahmad who has again got clearance for his chicking by UWA. The guy has so far chucked 46 test wickets !!

Or could it be that his action has been amended?

 

[Shoaib]

Or could it be that his action has been amended?

Yeah,u r right & the full report will be sent to ICC in few days.UWA Biomechanic experts looked satisfied with his amended action.

 

[Richard]

I'm glad, I'd be disappointed if he didn't feature against us.

 

[Swervy]

how many times must a bowler go through these tests etc, get shown he is ok and then go back to old ways.

IMO Shabbir is possibly the biggest chucker of the ball I have ever seen, and unless he can be shown to be able to keep a fair action for a sustained period of time, he should be booted out of the game

 

[Richard]

You clearly didn't see Ruchira Perera at Lord's in 2002, then.
There have been many worse chuckers than him, and while he looked very bad recently in West Indies he wasn't as bad as that before.

 

[Swervy]

You clearly didn't see Ruchira Perera at Lord's in 2002, then.
There have been many worse chuckers than him, and while he looked very bad recently in West Indies he wasn't as bad as that before.

yeah he was pretty bad as well

 

[Arjun]

Raw pace doesn't work anywhere - no decent batsmen are troubled by pace alone. The only way to prosper as a seamer on proper Indian pitches is to use the new-ball to it's full with conventional swing, start reverse-swinging it as soon as poss, and use the technique of cutters.
Attacking power is provided by the ability to move the ball in all conditions, not pace. Pace is just a useful extra. It makes any movement more deadly still.
What I find most amazing is that, in a country as highly populated as India, there aren't sufficiently talented players around to produce lots of quality seamers. There's either a) something wrong with the scouting (although of course it's impossible to scan every healthy youngster), b) a lack of enthusiasm for the desire to bowl seam-up rather than bat or bowl spin or c) something wrong with the coaching in that no-one is around to make promise into skill.

A bit odd, coming from an England supporter. Looking at England's recent upswing in performances, the pace trio of Harmison, Jones and Flintoff have played an important role in that. Look at any of the top pace attacks that win matches consistently. There's at least one genuine pace bowler in them. Then look at the Indian and Lankan bowling attacks- you'd know why they struggle to win matches consistently, home or away. Batsmen take their time to adjust to moving deliveries if they lack pace, but when it's coming fast, they have to be more careful. Little wonder then, a batting lineup as highly rated as India's crumble against express pace. Of course, movement can work wonders if used well, but pace provides a new dimension to any attack, and even if the fast man may not have the greatest figures, the bowling attack still takes ten wickets cheaply.

You're right about the scouting bit. You can't get quality pacers if you only scan Mumbai, Tamil Nadu, Delhi or Karnataka. Come to think of it, the fastest bowlers may come from places with extreme living conditions. If one were to look at what makes a tearaway pacer, then look appropriately, you may find the right raw material. Lack of motivation maybe the case, since Dilip Vengsarkar often complains of giants taking up spin, when they should bowl fast. You're totally right about coaching- nobody in that position seems to know what's good for fast bowlers.

 

[Richard]

yeah he was pretty bad as well

Pretty bad?
His in that Test was the most blatantly and consistently illegal action, possibly ever. They did some loose calculation on his elbow on Sky and worked-out he was straightening about 35 degrees!
What is weird, of course, is that he's been fine every other time he's bowled - anywhere.
Shabbir, IIRR, had a worst of about 22 degrees.

 

[Richard]

A bit odd, coming from an England supporter. Looking at England's recent upswing in performances, the pace trio of Harmison, Jones and Flintoff have played an important role in that.

And Flintoff and Jones are swing-bowlers who merely happen to be quick as well. If they simply bowled fast and didn't swing it they'd be useless. In fact, both did used to be quick without movement, and both were utterly rubbish until very recently. It's only this summer last that they've both been good bowlers.
Harmison, who does rely on pace alone, is a rubbish bowler, and has played no real part in the most recent successes. He's had 2 good Tests in his last 14 (Bangladesh not included, of course), 1 of which was lost.

Look at any of the top pace attacks that win matches consistently. There's at least one genuine pace bowler in them.

There are very few 90mph bowlers in any sides ATM - aside from the English three mentioned above, Shoaib, Lee and Bond are the only three around at the moment. Sri Lanka, with Malinga, haven't noticed anything - and Shoaib again is not a good bowler because of his pace, it's because of his swing (mainly reverse). Lee is just rubbish and hasn't been in the team when 3 genuinely good seamers have been in nick, and Bond has barely played anyway and has really only influenced 1 Test out of his 8.

Then look at the Indian and Lankan bowling attacks- you'd know why they struggle to win matches consistently, home or away. Batsmen take their time to adjust to moving deliveries if they lack pace, but when it's coming fast, they have to be more careful. Little wonder then, a batting lineup as highly rated as India's crumble against express pace. Of course, movement can work wonders if used well, but pace provides a new dimension to any attack, and even if the fast man may not have the greatest figures, the bowling attack still takes ten wickets cheaply.

Quite simply, unless the fast men get the figures, they haven't contributed.
I can't really recall too many occasions India have crumbled against express pace in itself.

You're right about the scouting bit. You can't get quality pacers if you only scan Mumbai, Tamil Nadu, Delhi or Karnataka. Come to think of it, the fastest bowlers may come from places with extreme living conditions. If one were to look at what makes a tearaway pacer, then look appropriately, you may find the right raw material. Lack of motivation maybe the case, since Dilip Vengsarkar often complains of giants taking up spin, when they should bowl fast. You're totally right about coaching- nobody in that position seems to know what's good for fast bowlers.

If so, that's a crying shame - and it has to be asked, why does not someone with a World-renowned reputation for coaching and scouting quality seam-bowlers not get involved? Someone like Ian Bishop, Andy Roberts, Bob Cottam or Allan Donald.

 

[sledger]

And Flintoff and Jones are swing-bowlers who merely happen to be quick as well. If they simply bowled fast and didn't swing it they'd be useless. In fact, both did used to be quick without movement, and both were utterly rubbish until very recently. It's only this summer last that they've both been good bowlers.
Harmison, who does rely on pace alone, is a rubbish bowler, and has played no real part in the most recent successes. He's had 2 good Tests in his last 14 (Bangladesh not included, of course), 1 of which was lost.

There are very few 90mph bowlers in any sides ATM - aside from the English three mentioned above, Shoaib, Lee and Bond are the only three around at the moment. Sri Lanka, with Malinga, haven't noticed anything - and Shoaib again is not a good bowler because of his pace, it's because of his swing (mainly reverse). Lee is just rubbish and hasn't been in the team when 3 genuinely good seamers have been in nick, and Bond has barely played anyway and has really only influenced 1 Test out of his 8.

Quite simply, unless the fast men get the figures, they haven't contributed.
I can't really recall too many occasions India have crumbled against express pace in itself.

If so, that's a crying shame - and it has to be asked, why does not someone with a World-renowned reputation for coaching and scouting quality seam-bowlers not get involved? Someone like Ian Bishop, Andy Roberts, Bob Cottam or Allan Donald.

very good point that.

 

[GladiatrsInBlue]

Assuming you mean bowling, no, it's not impossible, but he'll sure have had to make massive improvements since the Pakistan tour for it to happen.
.

He went through a bad patch when Pak toured India, and thankfully he has regained his form.

And don't assume the pitches here will suit him. England hasn't been quite the green-seamer it's always portrayed as for the last 4 seasons

Still would be 10 times better than dusty Indian pitches.

I can't recall too many Australians doubting Flintoff (nor Harmison for that matter - I did, and I was justified), though.And it's that rather silly thing again - something happened with someone, so it must happen with another with vaguely similar circumstances

The silly thing is to write someone off before the tour has begun.Some Aussies wrote off Englaish bowlers and ended up looking like fools, likewsie Miandad wrote off IKP before India's tour of Pakistan only to eat his words later.

 

[GladiatrsInBlue]

Or could it be that his action has been amended?

Coutless times!

 

[GladiatrsInBlue]

Don't be jealous of our great fast bowlers.

That's shows where you stand. You consider a known chucker as a great bowler of ur country, isn't that a shame??

Shabbir has been reported three times for chuking, the guy has already chucked 46 wkts, and if he is not thrown out he might end up chucking more than 100 wkts and will prove to be a role model for future Pakistanis, that will result in scores of chukers in Pakistan.

Its ironic how ppl who are jealous of IKP's success are now accusing their nice neighbours of being jealous of their shameful chuckers!

 

[SJS]

You two go to Siachen and fight it out there. Hope its a fight to finish