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Pakistan v New Zealand ODI series
- Thread starter anzac
- Start date
I applaud the actions of the selectors in revamping their squad, which now has a better balance to it. It appears that only Nevin has lost his spot as a result of form, and the rest due to unavailaility or injuries. Harris IMO is lucky to be included, as indicated by the naming of Vettori as Vice - Captain.
With regard to the selections it is my view that they have tried to limit the number of players without touring experience, rather than have a large number of tour debutants. So far as I am aware only Cumming & Walker now fall into this category. Combined with the reports that Sneddon and possibly Bracewell will accompany the tour, this should take some of the touring pressure off the remaining 'senior' squad members.
While it is a strange squad the selectors have maintained consistency with the selections of Sinclair, Mason, Hitchcock & Jones. Marshall gets another chance after his impressive Test debut v SA in 2000, and is still young enough at 24 to repay the selector's. His OD average is as good as any of the other batsmen, and he has twice as many 50s to his credit as any of the other 'newbies' for the same number of matches. Cumming could have got the nod ahead of McIntosh as he is a couple of years older, and has experience as domestic state Captain.
I expect to see all the players get a start in the first couple of games and the starting lineup not to settle until about games 4 & 5. Although I am loathe to say it I expect to see the selectors tinker with the top order with the likes of Sinclair, McCullum & Harris featuring in their considerations as a result of their past experience.
Unfortunately there is no cover for Vettori, only Cumming providing an Astle type bowling option, with Walker being medium, Jones & Marshall not bowling, and the rest around fast med like Cairns, Oram & Tuffey.
With only Mason, Jones & Walmsley around the 30 yr old mark, the 'newbies' have an opportunity to establish themselves in the selector's minds for several years to come, particularly in regard to batting options.
With regard to the selections it is my view that they have tried to limit the number of players without touring experience, rather than have a large number of tour debutants. So far as I am aware only Cumming & Walker now fall into this category. Combined with the reports that Sneddon and possibly Bracewell will accompany the tour, this should take some of the touring pressure off the remaining 'senior' squad members.
While it is a strange squad the selectors have maintained consistency with the selections of Sinclair, Mason, Hitchcock & Jones. Marshall gets another chance after his impressive Test debut v SA in 2000, and is still young enough at 24 to repay the selector's. His OD average is as good as any of the other batsmen, and he has twice as many 50s to his credit as any of the other 'newbies' for the same number of matches. Cumming could have got the nod ahead of McIntosh as he is a couple of years older, and has experience as domestic state Captain.
I expect to see all the players get a start in the first couple of games and the starting lineup not to settle until about games 4 & 5. Although I am loathe to say it I expect to see the selectors tinker with the top order with the likes of Sinclair, McCullum & Harris featuring in their considerations as a result of their past experience.
Unfortunately there is no cover for Vettori, only Cumming providing an Astle type bowling option, with Walker being medium, Jones & Marshall not bowling, and the rest around fast med like Cairns, Oram & Tuffey.
With only Mason, Jones & Walmsley around the 30 yr old mark, the 'newbies' have an opportunity to establish themselves in the selector's minds for several years to come, particularly in regard to batting options.
Tim
Cricketer Of The Year
Well I think NZ will lose 4-1, there are alot of debutants in this team & I don't think we'll really have a chance until maybe Pakistan win 3-0 & put their foot off the accelerator.
The strange selections for me were Marshall & Walmsley, I know they've travelled with NZ before but I got the feeling they were well down the pecking order..and when you see who is missing from the NZ team you'll realise that they are quite far down the list.
I guess the selectors were looking for people to tour & players like Marshall & Walmsley have nothing to lose & everything to gain on this tour.
As for McIntosh, I think he's air-marked pretty much as a test player so Cumming probably got the nod because he can also bat anywhere from 1-6 & can roll his arm over.
I think Cumming will stand up on this tour, he will know very well that NZ are desperate for 2 openers at the moment & when you get to this level you can rise the standard of your game quite alot.
There is nothing really riding on this series because NZ are really only turning up to make sure Pakistan will tour here in December so the players may not feel under as much pressure as they would, should NZ have sent a full strength team.
The strange selections for me were Marshall & Walmsley, I know they've travelled with NZ before but I got the feeling they were well down the pecking order..and when you see who is missing from the NZ team you'll realise that they are quite far down the list.
I guess the selectors were looking for people to tour & players like Marshall & Walmsley have nothing to lose & everything to gain on this tour.
As for McIntosh, I think he's air-marked pretty much as a test player so Cumming probably got the nod because he can also bat anywhere from 1-6 & can roll his arm over.
I think Cumming will stand up on this tour, he will know very well that NZ are desperate for 2 openers at the moment & when you get to this level you can rise the standard of your game quite alot.
There is nothing really riding on this series because NZ are really only turning up to make sure Pakistan will tour here in December so the players may not feel under as much pressure as they would, should NZ have sent a full strength team.
I still expect a series white wash, but at least this looks like a squad rather than a bunch of bowlers and bowling allrounders.
I don't know enough about the new bowlers to comment on their potential ability to penetrate the Pakistani batting order. I just hope that we have some variety to offer rather than just continuous medium fast seam bowling. If not then I guess the Pakistani batsman will be dining out to improve their averages etc.....
I agree re Marshall & Walmsley, although I see that the latter had a reasonably good year last domestic OD season. Marshall is a bolt from the blue, but has the SA 2000 tour experience behind him & is still only young.
I guess the best we can hope for re the batting is some protection for the more established players to score some runs. I'd hope the selectors will let the newbies play their natural game long enough to have a chance to get comfortable in the middle - who knows some of them may even surprise given the chance.
So far as strategies go they'd be hoping to win the toss & bat to try and post a total they can bowl at, and then take it from there as the series developes.
I'm quietly expecting a couple of these newbies to stand up & play for their careers. Potentially it is a big chance for the likes of Marshall, Canning, Cumming, Mason & Walker. The players most under pressure IMO are the likes of Harris, Sinclair, Oram & even Cairns or Mills. If Harris & Sinclair are out performed by the newbies then they can kiss their international careers goodbye in either form of the game.
If the likes of Walker & Canning perform with both bat & ball then the allrounder equation becomes further muddled with the likes of Adams to come back from injury. I'm just concerned that most of our potential candidates for allrounder & bowling are all of the fast medium variety.
The worrying thought is that if the newbies do not make an impact, then players like Horne, Nevin, Sinclair, Harris & Mills are still as good as what the selectors have seen so far. I'd hope that they would have the courage to continue to look at new blood in the RSA tour, especially as many of the 'normal' squad should be available again.
While NZ cricket may be developing potential on the domestic scene, what they need is genuine competition for places in both forms of the game at International level. This will only come about if they continue to look at players, but in a sensible manner - both in where they are selected to play and how they are treated after the series. This squad is a good indication that they have probably failed to do so to date. Marshall, Butler, McCullum & Franklin are all young players that have been used & abused by the selectors either during the selection process (Franklin being better suited to the longer game rather than OD), the roles selected for (McCullum), or having being discarded into the wilderness & not even selected for other tours after having not 'failed' any more than other players persisted with.
My hope for this squad is that some genuine depth may be discovered, and that those players will not suffer the same fate as the above mentioned.
I don't know enough about the new bowlers to comment on their potential ability to penetrate the Pakistani batting order. I just hope that we have some variety to offer rather than just continuous medium fast seam bowling. If not then I guess the Pakistani batsman will be dining out to improve their averages etc.....
I agree re Marshall & Walmsley, although I see that the latter had a reasonably good year last domestic OD season. Marshall is a bolt from the blue, but has the SA 2000 tour experience behind him & is still only young.
I guess the best we can hope for re the batting is some protection for the more established players to score some runs. I'd hope the selectors will let the newbies play their natural game long enough to have a chance to get comfortable in the middle - who knows some of them may even surprise given the chance.
So far as strategies go they'd be hoping to win the toss & bat to try and post a total they can bowl at, and then take it from there as the series developes.
I'm quietly expecting a couple of these newbies to stand up & play for their careers. Potentially it is a big chance for the likes of Marshall, Canning, Cumming, Mason & Walker. The players most under pressure IMO are the likes of Harris, Sinclair, Oram & even Cairns or Mills. If Harris & Sinclair are out performed by the newbies then they can kiss their international careers goodbye in either form of the game.
If the likes of Walker & Canning perform with both bat & ball then the allrounder equation becomes further muddled with the likes of Adams to come back from injury. I'm just concerned that most of our potential candidates for allrounder & bowling are all of the fast medium variety.
The worrying thought is that if the newbies do not make an impact, then players like Horne, Nevin, Sinclair, Harris & Mills are still as good as what the selectors have seen so far. I'd hope that they would have the courage to continue to look at new blood in the RSA tour, especially as many of the 'normal' squad should be available again.
While NZ cricket may be developing potential on the domestic scene, what they need is genuine competition for places in both forms of the game at International level. This will only come about if they continue to look at players, but in a sensible manner - both in where they are selected to play and how they are treated after the series. This squad is a good indication that they have probably failed to do so to date. Marshall, Butler, McCullum & Franklin are all young players that have been used & abused by the selectors either during the selection process (Franklin being better suited to the longer game rather than OD), the roles selected for (McCullum), or having being discarded into the wilderness & not even selected for other tours after having not 'failed' any more than other players persisted with.
My hope for this squad is that some genuine depth may be discovered, and that those players will not suffer the same fate as the above mentioned.
amits
Banned
with too much politics and infighting in the pakistan camp, i think that new zealand are in with a bit of a chance. selection of players like junaid zia makes it even more worse.
players like abdur rauf who is being said as the next speed sensation (bowls over 95 mph) and also had a good average in the domestic season isnt being selected.
for the series, unless pakistan regroup themselves together and play as a team without relying on indivudual brillances, it will be a 3-2 win for new zealand. new zealand, on the other hand play as a team more rather than relying on indivudual brillances.
pakistan will have to seriously do some rethinking if they have to win. the current infighting and politics will take them nowhere.
players like abdur rauf who is being said as the next speed sensation (bowls over 95 mph) and also had a good average in the domestic season isnt being selected.
for the series, unless pakistan regroup themselves together and play as a team without relying on indivudual brillances, it will be a 3-2 win for new zealand. new zealand, on the other hand play as a team more rather than relying on indivudual brillances.
pakistan will have to seriously do some rethinking if they have to win. the current infighting and politics will take them nowhere.
Mr Mxyzptlk
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Whoa! Haven't heard of that happening too often.marc71178 said:
TendulkarFan
School Boy/Girl Captain
Wow! The elders sure won't be happy...marc71178 said:
But I agree with amits, any team stands a chance against Pakistan because corruption-infested management has really left that team in a very brittle state. They can implode any given day.
One of the most idiotic decisions they made was giving Sohail such an important position in Pakistani cricket. Never liked him.
well I'm stumped.......
I would have thought that Pakistan would be raging favorites to beat a NZ team with only 3 regular 1st team starters & all of them bowlers (Vettori, Tuffey & Oram). Particularly after 2 back to back Home series victories & especially when the latest was against the 2nd ranked team in the world!
I have not seen the Pakistani squad, but if they have kept the nucleous of the squad that played v RSA you would have to back them even if they were missing a couple of their more established players. Their recent squads have included the likes of Hameed, Hafeez, Umar, Nazir, Farhat, Youhana, Khan, Inzi, Iqbal, Malik, Razzaq, Akhtar, Sami, Gul, Kaneria & Ahmed, with the likes of Mustaq, Saqlain, Afridi & Mahmood out of sorts. IMO apart they can afford to 'rest' basically any 2 batsmen & any 2 bowlers, and still have enough talent & firepower in either department to be favoured to beat this NZ squad.
Some like Ahmed may be 'Home track Heroes' at this stage of their careers, but that's where the series is being played. If the Australian TVS Cup side was being called 3rd string re their bowling attack - what could you call this NZ squad - 4th or 5th????
Hell if I was a selector I would be using this series to rest some of the 'stars' and look at new blood & not just those with the 'best' credentials either. I would be looking to try different bowling attack variations & combinations, as well as a few 'allrounders' in an effort to establish a greater depth, variety, options & cover in the squad. I wouldn't go crazy but a 5 match series gives you a hell of an opportunity against such a severly depleted side.
I would have thought that Pakistan would be raging favorites to beat a NZ team with only 3 regular 1st team starters & all of them bowlers (Vettori, Tuffey & Oram). Particularly after 2 back to back Home series victories & especially when the latest was against the 2nd ranked team in the world!
I have not seen the Pakistani squad, but if they have kept the nucleous of the squad that played v RSA you would have to back them even if they were missing a couple of their more established players. Their recent squads have included the likes of Hameed, Hafeez, Umar, Nazir, Farhat, Youhana, Khan, Inzi, Iqbal, Malik, Razzaq, Akhtar, Sami, Gul, Kaneria & Ahmed, with the likes of Mustaq, Saqlain, Afridi & Mahmood out of sorts. IMO apart they can afford to 'rest' basically any 2 batsmen & any 2 bowlers, and still have enough talent & firepower in either department to be favoured to beat this NZ squad.
Some like Ahmed may be 'Home track Heroes' at this stage of their careers, but that's where the series is being played. If the Australian TVS Cup side was being called 3rd string re their bowling attack - what could you call this NZ squad - 4th or 5th????
Hell if I was a selector I would be using this series to rest some of the 'stars' and look at new blood & not just those with the 'best' credentials either. I would be looking to try different bowling attack variations & combinations, as well as a few 'allrounders' in an effort to establish a greater depth, variety, options & cover in the squad. I wouldn't go crazy but a 5 match series gives you a hell of an opportunity against such a severly depleted side.
I don't really mind what the result of this series is........i'm more interested if ANY top-order batsman scores runs consistently.
It's about time Nevin was dropped, I hope Vincent doesn't play in anymore ODIs in the forseeable future, and Harris needs to shape up. Both Vincent and Harris are overated IMO, awful with their strike rates and averages. and they have dropped important catches. Vincent should be kept as an opener in test matches.
Sinclair scored 2 hundreds the last time he was in Asia (in the Sharjah Cup I think); his selection was justified. Not sure about the new guys, I would have chosen Chris Drum ahead of Kerry Walmsley. I would have included Mark Richardson in the side too, he has a decent FC ODI record, and is unfairly criticised.
It's about time Nevin was dropped, I hope Vincent doesn't play in anymore ODIs in the forseeable future, and Harris needs to shape up. Both Vincent and Harris are overated IMO, awful with their strike rates and averages. and they have dropped important catches. Vincent should be kept as an opener in test matches.
Sinclair scored 2 hundreds the last time he was in Asia (in the Sharjah Cup I think); his selection was justified. Not sure about the new guys, I would have chosen Chris Drum ahead of Kerry Walmsley. I would have included Mark Richardson in the side too, he has a decent FC ODI record, and is unfairly criticised.
Mr Mxyzptlk
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Welcome to the forum meatspx.
I agree with you on Richardson. New Zealand need any solidity and consistency in the batting that they can find, regardless of the SR. Even if Richardson plays for 80odd off 140 balls or so, he would be giving the team more runs than it's been getting from an individual player recently. With players like Fleming and McMillan there, run rate at the other end shouldn't be a problem.
I agree with you on Richardson. New Zealand need any solidity and consistency in the batting that they can find, regardless of the SR. Even if Richardson plays for 80odd off 140 balls or so, he would be giving the team more runs than it's been getting from an individual player recently. With players like Fleming and McMillan there, run rate at the other end shouldn't be a problem.
southern man
U19 Cricketer
Chris drum retired.meatspx said:
Tim
Cricketer Of The Year
I don't think NZ are too interested in Marshall, Walmsley & Richard Jones in ODIs..I think they're just going because the selectors needed players who were willing to travel.
The players who will be watched with interest will be Cumming, Walker, Canning & Mason.
Particulary Cumming if he opens & probably Mason because NZ I think are still searching for a 1st change pace option.
I think the ODI team for the series in NZ will be alot different too, it appears as though NZ are going to gamble on Jesse Ryder sooner rather than later.
The players who will be watched with interest will be Cumming, Walker, Canning & Mason.
Particulary Cumming if he opens & probably Mason because NZ I think are still searching for a 1st change pace option.
I think the ODI team for the series in NZ will be alot different too, it appears as though NZ are going to gamble on Jesse Ryder sooner rather than later.
Hello
I don't know what direction Bracewell will take this team, but I hope he places more importance on developing top order batting. Most of our losses stem from not scoring runs at the top of the order, re: the last two world cups.
NZ need to start touring with an extra batsman. A batsman who is capable of scoring runs and is used when the current 1XI isn't performing. Cummings, Sinclair or Jones have that opportunity.
Walker and Canning have potential, but ultimately they won't help NZ's problems in ODI. Batting is the problem.
I don't know what direction Bracewell will take this team, but I hope he places more importance on developing top order batting. Most of our losses stem from not scoring runs at the top of the order, re: the last two world cups.
NZ need to start touring with an extra batsman. A batsman who is capable of scoring runs and is used when the current 1XI isn't performing. Cummings, Sinclair or Jones have that opportunity.
Walker and Canning have potential, but ultimately they won't help NZ's problems in ODI. Batting is the problem.
Tim
Cricketer Of The Year
Its a big ask for those 3 batsmen to go to Pakistan & score runs considering none of them played in India..but if they want to leap-frog a whole lot of players then its really up to them now to prove a point on this tour.
We've still got problems with our bowling where we can't finish teams off, but that also comes from the fact that we never score enough runs because our top order flops every 3 out of 4 games.
As for Walker & Canning, well im not really sure what they can do..its unlikely even if they play well in Pakistan that they'll move ahead of the likes of Oram, Adams, Mills etc so..I guess they could be fighting for a place with Harris.
Although i'd prefer to see a batsmen who can bowl takeover Harris's position rather than Walker or Canning who are both bowlers who bat.
We've still got problems with our bowling where we can't finish teams off, but that also comes from the fact that we never score enough runs because our top order flops every 3 out of 4 games.
As for Walker & Canning, well im not really sure what they can do..its unlikely even if they play well in Pakistan that they'll move ahead of the likes of Oram, Adams, Mills etc so..I guess they could be fighting for a place with Harris.
Although i'd prefer to see a batsmen who can bowl takeover Harris's position rather than Walker or Canning who are both bowlers who bat.
Tim
Cricketer Of The Year
Im not too sure, but I guess they'll be given a go at it in Pakistan.
They're both probably no more than 130 km's & are fairly accurate.
Both of them have extremely good FC bowling stats though, so it'll be interesting to see how they match up against Pakistan who I imagine will try and play aggressively.
They're both probably no more than 130 km's & are fairly accurate.
Both of them have extremely good FC bowling stats though, so it'll be interesting to see how they match up against Pakistan who I imagine will try and play aggressively.
Tim
Cricketer Of The Year
The only way I can see NZ winning this series, is if Pakistan just turn up expecting to win..which could be likely knowing what Pakistan are like on occassions.
But Im still sticking with a 4-1 result in favour of Pakistan, I don't really think you can expect too much from the team NZ are sending.
But Im still sticking with a 4-1 result in favour of Pakistan, I don't really think you can expect too much from the team NZ are sending.