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*Official* South Africa in England Thread

anzac

International Debutant
England showed yet again that they are notoriously slow starters in the Test Series that matter, and yet again they showed they play their best cricket at the back end of a series (away on the sub-continent). Thankfully they had the opportunity to 'save' this series, as at other times it is about saving face v Aus.

England needed this to make ammends for their botched performance at Headingly, and nothing short of this emphatic victory would have sufficed! Sure this was a great result, but they need to keep sight of their performances in the rest of the series to keep this in perspective.

Realisticaly SA played into England's hands in this one, and England still have some ways to go b4 they can look at repeating this performance throughtout a series against the better sides.

The batting lineup still needs a few teaks etc in the lower order following retirements & injury, but the Top & middle is probably set for a few years yet.

Their bowling is still decimated from the Ashes, but they now have some depth & experience to work with, especially when those injuries recover & are available again.

Flintoff is a concern, so often the 'entertainer' or 'saviour' with the bat, yet his Test bowling average is now 50 - look out AA!!!!!! If the England bowling attack does not improve, if Flintoff does not improve his bowling, and once the likes of Caddick & Hoggard become available I wonder how long he can be 'carried' in this team?

A good result no doubt but lets not get carried away - if nothing else this series has shown that neither of these sides are realistic challengers to the Australian dominance yet, and there is still some ways to go b4 they can realistically think of themselves as such.

:)
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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anzac said:
if Flintoff does not improve his bowling, and once the likes of Caddick & Hoggard become available I wonder how long he can be 'carried' in this team?
IMO Flintoff is batting well enough right now to keep his place. He is, after all, a 5th bowler and not a bad one at that. It's just nor happened for him. However, seeing as there should be four front-line bowlers ahead of him, I think England can very much afford to keep him in the team.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
The other thing is, is that Flintoff is actually quite a good slips fielder.

Looking at the other slips fielders England have, they aren't that great and England have been getting alot of catches going through that area. So Flintoff probably is worth some value to England in that area of fielding.
 

chris.hinton

International Captain
Neil Pickup said:
Under 17s still only second division, mind, and I'm not overly convinced about some of their attitudes to the game...

As for the 1st XI... the minor counties final starts tomorrow...

And it will probably get rained off, however it's only 250 metres from my house so I will be down there on Monday (club "duties" on Sat/Sun)

Under 17s what do you mean by the attitudes i dont get that Neil can you tell me?
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
chris.hinton said:
Under 17s what do you mean by the attitudes i dont get that Neil can you tell me?
Let's just say that there have been unsavoury incidents at club level that we have been on the end of, and leave it at that.
 

anzac

International Debutant
Rik said:
Graham Thorpe:

124 reasons to learn to forgive and forget.

as I said his talent was not in question - just the reasoning behind his selection.

so far as forgive & forget I'll reserve my judgement until we see how the winter tour to the sub-continent & the WI goes!

:D
 

anzac

International Debutant
I agree that Flintoff's batting etc is keeping him in the side as he seems custom made etc for the role of a destructive 'allrounder' with the bat.

My concern was that until such time as the frontline bowlers get their act together, he is going to be expected to do as much bowling as anyone else in the search for wickets. His performances with the bat should not gloss over the deficiencies with the ball - after all he is a 'bowler who bats' as opposed to a 'batsman who bowls'.

IMO he needs to drastically sort out his bowling, as an average of 50 in test cricket is not good enough regarless if he is a 5th bowler or not. His ODI average is in the mid 20's so his Test average should be better!

:)
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Out of interest Anzac, have you seen much of his bowling?

I'm not criticising, but if you had you wouldn't look at him and think "that average is right" - he has been bowling some really really superb spells this summer, and not getting rewarded.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
Flintoff (like Harmison:P ) has been very impressive on more than one occasion with the ball during the series, yet his figures have been less than flattering. Still, it's not a game based on averages - it's one of match-winning performances and the pair were admirable in the fifth test with both bat and ball.
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
Flintoff is a batsman who bowls more than he is a bowler who bats. He is in the side to add depth to the batting and be a 4th seamer really.

Flintoff is averaging 39 since his maden century in NZ about 18 months ago. That's without any not outs, so shows how valuable a batsmean he is. And why he is being moved to 6. With the ball, he is someone you only expect to take 1-2 wickets per innings because you have 3 seamers ahead of him who should be getting 6 wickets between them.
 

anzac

International Debutant
marc71178 said:
Out of interest Anzac, have you seen much of his bowling?

I'm not criticising, but if you had you wouldn't look at him and think "that average is right" - he has been bowling some really really superb spells this summer, and not getting rewarded.
I did not see a lot of this series, and only highlights type packages of the last Home series prior to the WC & the sub-continent tour. I did manage to see most of The Ashes Tour.

Don't get me wrong - I actually like Flintoff as a player, and I agree that his figures do not reflect his ability or how well he bowls at times. All I'm saying is that as a Test match bowler an average of 50 is cause for concern and needs to be addressed, particularly when his ODI average is so good.

To be fair his economy rate is still under 3 rpo which is astounding when you see that 50, so effectively it is his strike rate that is doing the damage to his figures. Either he is very unlucky, or he bowls well in patches with a lot of maidens & no luck, or he bowls inconsistantly that they leave him alone / can't get to it, and when they do they spank it!

My main concern is that they would ignore the situation on the back of the drawn series and his exploits with the bat.

:)
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
I think the situations is being left as a result of Flintoff bowling well and it only being a matter of time before his average comes down. His one day bowling came on leaps and bounds last year, then this year his batting in both forms has taken a real upturn. I'm sure within a year his average will be <40 and falling.
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
anzac said:
He is very unlucky, or he bowls well in patches with a lot of maidens & no luck, or he bowls inconsistantly that they leave him alone / can't get to it, and when they do they spank it!
It's as underlined :)
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Neil Pickup said:
It's as underlined :)
You missed out the bit about "he bowls too much the same with little or no movement off the seam and most of the time a batsman can quite easily let it go without bother" which, although shows accuracy, does not constitute good bowling which requires getting the batsman to play at the ball...

The difference between Freddie and someone like Pollock is that Pollock usually gets the ball just close enough to the batsman to make him play, Flintoff hardly ever gets into that zone.
 

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