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***Official*** India in South Africa

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Apparently, the players themselves and the captain and coach have said that he did bowl at full pace for one whole hour during a net session before the last test.
Are you saying that he was fit enough to bowl 1 hour during the net session ? If so, doesn't that contradict the whole media report that Munaf was hiding his injury ? You can't have the cake and eat it too - Munaf was either really injured or not injured, you cant argue from both sides. If he was not fit then how did he bowl 1 hour in nets ?

Clearly I dont believe the captain/coach/physio/doctor - I dont think either one of them is giving is giving us the true picture here. All of them are trying to save their behind and pass the buck. This physio is a joke.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Off topic a little, but I was thinking about this earlier today. Is this the first time India have lost two test matches on the trot in around 4 years (India in WI 2002 I believe)?
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Are you saying that he was fit enough to bowl 1 hour during the net session ? If so, doesn't that contradict the whole media report that Munaf was hiding his injury ? You can't have the cake and eat it too - Munaf was either really injured or not injured, you cant argue from both sides. If he was not fit then how did he bowl 1 hour in nets ?

Clearly I dont believe the captain/coach/physio/doctor - I dont think either one of them is giving is giving us the true picture here. All of them are trying to save their behind and pass the buck. This physio is a joke.
I don't think Munaf was unfit to bowl. The doctor himself has said that his ankles are fine etc. It is just that he is mentally uncomfortable with the idea of bowling flat out in a match situation. That is why he is being blasted by all and sundry. And hence, at least in his case, the coach, captain and physio can hardly be the ones to be blamed.
 

adharcric

International Coach
The part I don't understand is that the players said Munaf bowled a pacy spell in the nets prior to the match. If he bowled it then, why didn't he do so during the match itself?
The risk was the same in both cases and the reward was far greater in the latter situation, unless Munaf just wanted to get into the side (and not take wickets) for some reason.
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
The part I don't understand is that the players said Munaf bowled a pacy spell in the nets prior to the match. If he bowled it then, why didn't he do so during the match itself?
The risk was the same in both cases and the reward was far greater in the latter situation, unless Munaf just wanted to get into the side (and not take wickets) for some reason.
I don't understand it either, but that is how the matter stands.


Unless Sanz is going to say that the whole team is now conspiring against Munaf so that Rahul, Greg and Gloster can keep up their good names.


John Gloster has not done a bad job in all his years as physio for the Indian side, IMHO. Greg Chappell has been 50-50 in the sense that he has done some good stuff and some bad stuff. Rahul is not a natural captain either and looks lost a lot of times. But to blame these three for something that is basically Munaf's fault, any way you look at it, is a little OTT.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Unless Sanz is going to say that the whole team is now conspiring against Munaf so that Rahul, Greg and Gloster can keep up their good names.
.
So Where is the whole team spaking about Munaf's fitness ? Rahul, Chappell and Golster dont make the whole team.

John Gloster has not done a bad job in all his years as physio for the Indian side, IMHO. Greg Chappell has been 50-50 in the sense that he has done some good stuff and some bad stuff. Rahul is not a natural captain either and looks lost a lot of times. But to blame these three for something that is basically Munaf's fault, any way you look at it, is a little OTT.
John Golster and Dr. Ananth Joshi are a joke really. Sachin has been unfit for more than a year now, Yuvraj is out, Sehwag looks like a Drum, Munaf is injured throughout this tour. Zaheer's fitness had nothing to with Golster, when he was unfit he was left to work on his fitness on his own.

Lastly, I am not even talking about Rahul's captaincy in general, it's just that it is his responsibility if he takes a gamble with an injured player. Trying to pass the buck and not taking up the responsibility for your own folly is really signs of a very weak leader.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
The part I don't understand is that the players said Munaf bowled a pacy spell in the nets prior to the match. If he bowled it then, why didn't he do so during the match itself?.
May be didn't bowl as well in the nets as it is being stated by the team management. May be the team management isn't speaking the truth. Btw, here is Greg Chappell on one of his rare interview immidiately after the test match :-

"I don`t think there was any fitness issue with Munaf. He didn`t bowl because after the break Zaheer was fresh for another spell. You would have to ask Rahul the reason for it".

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=346408&sid=SPO&ssid=88
http://www.hindustantimes.com/htcricket/8145_1891238,001601400002.htm

The risk was the same in both cases and the reward was far greater in the latter situation, unless Munaf just wanted to get into the side (and not take wickets) for some reason.
Thanks for asking that, If I had asked the same question, I would have been accused of being baised.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Check the TOI report on this issue today. Again, they say that Munaf was physically fit enough to bowl full throttle, but he just decided not to, because of his mental blocks about fitness.


And Sanz, Sachin has only played whenever he himself is sure he is 100% fit. Otherwise, he is a guy who wouldn't play. Sanjay Manjrekar's article on this facet of Sachin's personality brought a lot of ire on the writer himself. I think it is just the fact that Sachin is not physically as strong as he used to be when he was younger. He has hurt his fingers before too, when dropping catches, but it never injured him as much as it did when he dropped Prince at Durban. Maybe the 17 years of international cricket is just taking its toll.


Secondly, Munaf is not the first guy to claim he is match fit and then not bowl at full throttle in a match. Zaheer and Nehra have done so in the past too. If the physio finds him 100% physically fit and the player himself doesn't feel any pain or discomfort in his injured area when bowling at full throttle, one would definitely assume he is fit enough to play. That is what Dravid, Chappell and Gloster did in this case. If you care to go through Munaf's records and his interviews, you will see that the guy has a major attitude problem reg. fitness and injuries. Dr. Joshi has examined him and has said that there is no injury and that it was just Munaf continued to be apprehensive more than anything else. I still don't think Gloster has done a bad job. We have had better physios than him, sure, but he is not doing a bad job, esp. right now. To keep blaming the captain, coach and physio for the player's fault is really childish, IMHO.


And Sanz, the reason I said "the whole team" was because according to reports all the main batsmen faced Munaf and then told the captain and coach and physio that he was bowling at good pace, almost full pace etc. And the fact that he is horrible on the field doesn't prove anything reg. his fitness, because he will be that horrible even when he is full fit. :p
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Check the TOI report on this issue today. Again, they say that Munaf was physically fit enough to bowl full throttle, but he just decided not to, because of his mental blocks about fitness.
You continue to say 'the players say...' yet fail to show a single comment by anyone other than Dravid. Munaf was fit enough before the second test and he bowled pretty well but Dravid and co. decided to not play him in the test. It is just an assumption on your part that Munaf decided not to bowl full throttle in a test match on his own. This is ridiculous.

And Sanz, Sachin has only played whenever he himself is sure he is 100% fit. Otherwise, he is a guy who wouldn't play. Sanjay Manjrekar's article on this facet of Sachin's personality brought a lot of ire on the writer himself. I think it is just the fact that Sachin is not physically as strong as he used to be when he was younger. He has hurt his fingers before too, when dropping catches, but it never injured him as much as it did when he dropped Prince at Durban. Maybe the 17 years of international cricket is just taking its toll.
Look man, if is not strong enough to play then he should retire. He and his fanatic cant keep using that excuse. He has started to lose his fan base and If he continues to pathetically make himself available then It would be worse than KapilDev. Manjrekar was right, it is just sad that he had to take so much flak for saying the obvious. But trust me more and more people are getting sick of all this Tendulkar fanatism.

Secondly, Munaf is not the first guy to claim he is match fit and then not bowl at full throttle in a match. Zaheer and Nehra have done so in the past too. If the physio finds him 100% physically fit and the player himself doesn't feel any pain or discomfort in his injured area when bowling at full throttle, one would definitely assume he is fit enough to play. That is what Dravid, Chappell and Gloster did in this case.
How do you know that Munaf was or was not 100% fit before the match ?


If you care to go through Munaf's records and his interviews, you will see that the guy has a major attitude problem reg. fitness and injuries. Dr. Joshi has examined him and has said that there is no injury and that it was just Munaf continued to be apprehensive more than anything else. I still don't think Gloster has done a bad job. We have had better physios than him, sure, but he is not doing a bad job, esp. right now. To keep blaming the captain, coach and physio for the player's fault is really childish, IMHO.
It's funny that you bring Munaf's record now. It was a well known fact before he was selected to play for Indi. This guy wasn't even good enough for Mumbai Ranji team and yet we was selected. Sandip Patil had criticized his attitude long time back and kind of shut his future plans in Mumbai, et he was selected to play for India at the behest of Chappell, Dravid etc. If they knew about his attitude why did they ask for him ? Who is going to be accountable for that ? And trust me I dont believe This Dr. Joshi at all. He says there is nothing wrong and then advises him two weeks of rest. This doctor didn't have a clue about Tendulkar's elbow injury, so please dont cite his report and statement as proof of anything. I have more faith in Dr. Ali Irani's treatment than Dr. Joshi's.


And Sanz, the reason I said "the whole team" was because according to reports all the main batsmen faced Munaf and then told the captain and coach and physio that he was bowling at good pace, almost full pace etc. And the fact that he is horrible on the field doesn't prove anything reg. his fitness, because he will be that horrible even when he is full fit. :p
I dont care how he is in the field, I am not even arguing that. You can repeat coach/physio/captain's statement 20000 times and it wont make any difference. Munaf hasn't even said a word. Dravid didn't say that Munaf told him that he was fit to play.
 

adharcric

International Coach
Yeah Hang him. India lost the test because of Munaf and not because of pathetic leadership and batting displays of Dravid and some other batsmen.
Awesome. You can't prove your point so you make up another one and try to prove that? No one has blamed Munaf for the defeat ...
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
You continue to say 'the players say...' yet fail to show a single comment by anyone other than Dravid. Munaf was fit enough before the second test and he bowled pretty well but Dravid and co. decided to not play him in the test. It is just an assumption on your part that Munaf decided not to bowl full throttle in a test match on his own. This is ridiculous.



Look man, if is not strong enough to play then he should retire. He and his fanatic cant keep using that excuse. He has started to lose his fan base and If he continues to pathetically make himself available then It would be worse than KapilDev. Manjrekar was right, it is just sad that he had to take so much flak for saying the obvious. But trust me more and more people are getting sick of all this Tendulkar fanatism.



How do you know that Munaf was or was not 100% fit before the match ?




It's funny that you bring Munaf's record now. It was a well known fact before he was selected to play for Indi. This guy wasn't even good enough for Mumbai Ranji team and yet we was selected. Sandip Patil had criticized his attitude long time back and kind of shut his future plans in Mumbai, et he was selected to play for India at the behest of Chappell, Dravid etc. If they knew about his attitude why did they ask for him ? Who is going to be accountable for that ? And trust me I dont believe This Dr. Joshi at all. He says there is nothing wrong and then advises him two weeks of rest. This doctor didn't have a clue about Tendulkar's elbow injury, so please dont cite his report and statement as proof of anything. I have more faith in Dr. Ali Irani's treatment than Dr. Joshi's.




I dont care how he is in the field, I am not even arguing that. You can repeat coach/physio/captain's statement 20000 times and it wont make any difference. Munaf hasn't even said a word. Dravid didn't say that Munaf told him that he was fit to play.


First of all, I agree with the part about Sachin. But my main point was that he was only playing when he was fully fit and therefore, you can hardly blame Gloster for what is happening with Sachin.


Secondly, w.r.t Munaf, maybe he was selected because they felt that they could improve his attitude under them or maybe they felt that he would always give 100% for his team. Again, it is not their fault that a guy's attitude doesn't improve even when he is playing for the country. Gloster checks on Munaf, finds that he is physically fit. He bowled, if the reports were true (and no one has said it was false as yet), for an hour at good pace and was pain free. So they pick him for the game where for some reason, Munaf becomes apprehensive about his injury coming back and doesn't go flat out. And all of this is Gloster, Dravid and Chappell's fault? Like I said, I would be the first to admit there are things wrong with those three but not in this issue.


And since u keep asking us for proof, how about u provide proof that Dravid, Chappell and Gloster were the ones who erred in figuring out the fitness level of Munaf? You have got a physio of an international sports team and a doctor appointed by the board saying that he is physically 100% fit and can move his ankles around as much as he wants without pain and yet you are doubting them and claiming that Munaf isn't fit. Come on, Sanz....
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
And since u keep asking us for proof, how about u provide proof that Dravid, Chappell and Gloster were the ones who erred in figuring out the fitness level of Munaf? You have got a physio of an international sports team and a doctor appointed by the board saying that he is physically 100% fit and can move his ankles around as much as he wants without pain and yet you are doubting them and claiming that Munaf isn't fit. Come on, Sanz....
Folks like you are claiming that he is responsible for injury either by not stating facts or that problem is in his mind. If Munaf was fully fit (as you are trying to claim) why did he bowl only 1 over in the SA 2nd innings ? If Munaf's problem is in mind then how did he bowl 20 overs in the 1st inning and bowled pretty well too despite not looking very fit ?

The fact is I dont know if he was 100% fit or not(neither do you), he didn't look fit to me. But claiming that he is 100% fit and problem is in is mind is utterly ridiculous. Why cant he get injured in the middle of the test ? Oh wait..that happens only to Sachin Tendulkar.

As for the team doctor - He wasn't even there in SA to make any statement on his own, all he has is Golster's and Coach/captain's word. And just because he is appointed by the board doesn't mean I am going to trust him, Since when has Indian Board started appointing professionals based on their merit and not on recommendation ? Dr. Irani, Chaddha ring bells ?
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Sanz is an angry man at the minute.

Its a tricky situation all round, I don't think Munaf should have been publically hung out like he was though, but I feel he was at least partly at fault.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Secondly, w.r.t Munaf, maybe he was selected because they felt that they could improve his attitude under them or maybe they felt that he would always give 100% for his team. Again, it is not their fault that a guy's attitude doesn't improve even when he is playing for the country. Gloster checks on Munaf, finds that he is physically fit. He bowled, if the reports were true (and no one has said it was false as yet), for an hour at good pace and was pain free. So they pick him for the game where for some reason, Munaf becomes apprehensive about his injury coming back and doesn't go flat out. And all of this is Gloster, Dravid and Chappell's fault? Like I said, I would be the first to admit there are things wrong with those three but not in this issue.
Select him on the basis of what ? You dont pick players with that sort of attitude in international cricket and hope that they will improve on their own. His attitude wab't good enough for Mumbai Ranji team. And yes it is their fault for picking losers like that.

This team management is very poor when it comes to sorting out attitudes of players and you should accept that.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Sanz is an angry man at the minute.

Its a tricky situation all round, I don't think Munaf should have been publically hung out like he was though, but I feel he was at least partly at fault.
I am not mad, but it kinda pains me to see this team management does it to players everytime such sort of situation arises and they get pretty good support from sites like Cricinfo which most people trust blindly.

I am not saying is Munaf isn't at fault at all, he is an idiot and should never have been picked but saying stuff like his problem is in mind is pretty stupid. Joshi and Gloster are still not willing to accept that He is not 100% fit whereas the Chief Selector Vengsarkar is on record saying that Munaf is not 100% fit.

Unfit Munaf should not have been in final XI - Vengsarkar

“I am not very happy with his fitness, to be honest. I want 100% fit players in the team. Even if he has a slight niggle, he should inform the coach, the captain or the selection committee. If players are unfit, they are letting the Indian team down. And Munaf did just that, he was not 100% fit....“He was saying he was 100% fit, John Gloster (the physio) was saying he was 100% fit. But you could see with the naked eye that he wasn’t. You just can’t lie like that, he was virtually limping. You could see that he was not putting 100% on his follow-through. These things shouldn’t be allowed at al..”

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/20402.html

If Munaf isn't truthful, well then neither are Dravid, Greg, Gloster and Joshi. Whole world could see Munaf wasn't fit, but these four men who are responsible for team selection couldn't notice that.
 

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