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***Official*** India in Pakistan

shankar

International Debutant
TIF said:
There isnt too much to laugh in it. The Pakistani pace-bowling is over-rated whereas their batting is highly under-rated and its the reverse with India, our batting is highly overrated and our pace-bowling is under-rated.

To make that post look less laughable, he should have added - "Even Batting wise, both teams are at a similar level.

Comparing the Pakistani and Indian pace-bowling,

Pathan > Rana
Zaheer > Sami(too inconsistent and also both have good records against New Zealand with Zaheer being slightly better against other teams too)
Agarkar << Akhtar

So, thats 2 ">"s in favour of India and 2 ">"s in favour of Pakistan making the pace-bowling of both teams more or less at similar level. Do not forget this fact, in the last India-Pakistan series in Pakistan, Indian pacers did better than the Pakistani pacers.

There is nothing wrong in what "Wahindiawah" said.
IMO Rana slightly > Pathan, in terms of the effectiveness of the roles that they play. Rana basically needs to pick up the odd wicket with the new ball and keep it tight for Akhtar at the other end. He was very effective in this role in the England series. Between Zaheer and Sami again, it's very close - Zaheer is just coming back after a long gap and if he can hit the straps right from the first match, then he's probably better than Sami, but knowing Zaheer that's a huge IF. However, Akhtar is just miles ahead of Agarkar. So overall, the Pak pace attack is significantly better than India's.

Besides the above, I really don't think this > < method of comparing attacks is valid as it over-simplifies it too much. For example Akhtar is the one bowler from both the sides who has the crucial proven ability to turn in a match-winning performance running through the opposition batting. Based on this alone the Pakistan pace attack is far better than the Indian one irrespective of the other bowlers.
 

TIF

U19 Debutant
shankar said:
IMO Rana slightly > Pathan, in terms of the effectiveness of the roles that they play. Rana basically needs to pick up the odd wicket with the new ball and keep it tight for Akhtar at the other end. He was very effective in this role in the England series. Between Zaheer and Sami again, it's very close - Zaheer is just coming back after a long gap and if he can hit the straps right from the first match, then he's probably better than Sami, but knowing Zaheer that's a huge IF. However, Akhtar is just miles ahead of Agarkar. So overall, the Pak pace attack is significantly better than India's.

Besides the above, I really don't think this > < method of comparing attacks is valid as it over-simplifies it too much. For example Akhtar is the one bowler from both the sides who has the crucial proven ability to turn in a match-winning performance running through the opposition batting. Based on this alone the Pakistan pace attack is far better than the Indian one irrespective of the other bowlers.
Pathan v Rana -

Comparing Averages -
Pathan excluding minnows(I have excluded minnows as many people have said that his average has been lifted due to the fact that he picked 39 wickets in 4 tests @ 11.56 against the minnows, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe) - 34 wickets in 14 tests @ 42.85
Rana - 15 wickets in 7 tests @ 55.79 and he is yet to play against minnows.

Effectiveness of roles -
Pathan - Pathan, playing as an Indian pacer, does not have to be the wicket-taker for India in tests, in terms of his effectivenss, he just has to keep his tight and provide some early wickets before the spinners, Harbhajan and Kumble take over and take the remaining wickets. Pathan, has been very effective in this role providing the early breakthrough which India needs.
Rana - You said it about Rana.

Going by statistics and the effectiveness of their roles, I would put in Pathan > Rana. And, this makes Indian pace-bowling attack as good as, if not better than Pakistan.

Indian pace-bowling is highly under-rated whereas Pakistan pace-bowling is over-rated and this is mainly due to the fact that the Indian pacers, play the role of support bowlers and do not have much to do as we already have 2 world-class spinners in Kumble and Harbhajan in the team, who pick up the wickets. The job of the Indian pacers, is to get only those early wickets putting the opposition on the backfoot.

Pakistan pace-bowling is over-rated as their pacers, play the main role in taking the wickets and spinners are there only to keep things tight at the other end picking up occasional wickets. The job of the Pakistan pacers, is to take the wickets, not just early wickets.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
TIF said:
Going by statistics and the effectiveness of their roles, I would put in Pathan > Rana. And, this makes Indian pace-bowling attack as good as, if not better than Pakistan.
How does it when Pakistan have Akhtar?

You're rating India's premier strike seamer better than Pakistan's second one, but Shoaib is head and shoulders above any of the other quick bowlers in the series.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Taibu, recently did it for Zimbabwe almost 2 years ago against Sri Lanka with Utseya taking the gloves while Taibu bowled and Taibu kept when the other bowlers bowled.
Utseya didnt take the gloves, Maregwede did.
 
Its not a green top baby!!

The GREAT news is that the curator of Lahore pitch has discosed that the pitch is brownish and not green top atall, and is going to take turn from the third day!!!!!

Haha ... this practically means a huge advantage to team India , as with two spinners India will blast off Pak team on a turning wkt.

India 1-0 up at Lahore Stadium :)
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
TIF said:
Comparing the Pakistani and Indian pace-bowling,

Pathan > Rana
Zaheer > Sami(too inconsistent and also both have good records against New Zealand with Zaheer being slightly better against other teams too)
Agarkar << Akhtar

So, thats 2 ">"s in favour of India and 2 ">"s in favour of Pakistan making the pace-bowling of both teams more or less at similar level.
What about

Shoaib > Rana > Pathan > Sami > Zaheer > Agarkar > RP Singh > Mohammad Asif

Thats 4-3 in India's favour right ?

:)
 
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SJS said:
What about

Shoaib > Pathan > Rana > Zaheer > Sami > Agarkar > RP Singh > Mohammad Asif

Thats 4-3 in India's favour right ?

:)
I would say

Akhtar > IKP > Rana > Zaheer >(??) Asif > Sami/Ajit >RP Singh.

Though all this >> << doesn't help much really.
 

shankar

International Debutant
TIF said:
Going by statistics and the effectiveness of their roles, I would put in Pathan > Rana. And, this makes Indian pace-bowling attack as good as, if not better than Pakistan.

Indian pace-bowling is highly under-rated whereas Pakistan pace-bowling is over-rated and this is mainly due to the fact that the Indian pacers, play the role of support bowlers and do not have much to do as we already have 2 world-class spinners in Kumble and Harbhajan in the team, who pick up the wickets. The job of the Indian pacers, is to get only those early wickets putting the opposition on the backfoot.

Pakistan pace-bowling is over-rated as their pacers, play the main role in taking the wickets and spinners are there only to keep things tight at the other end picking up occasional wickets. The job of the Pakistan pacers, is to take the wickets, not just early wickets.
We may quibble about whether Pathan or Rana or Zaheer is better and it can go whichever way. But the bottomline is Pak have the big trump card in Shoaib Akhtar who is head and shoulders above all the other pacers in this series. Hence Pak have the better pace attack by quite a distance.
 
I think M Asif is a bowler to watch out for, if he gets a chance then he can pose problems.He seems to be a much better bet than the likes of Sami and maybe even Gul
 
vandemataram said:
The GREAT news is that the curator of Lahore pitch has discosed that the pitch is brownish and not green top atall, and is going to take turn from the third day!!!!!

Haha ... this practically means a huge advantage to team India , as with two spinners India will blast off Pak team on a turning wkt.

India 1-0 up at Lahore Stadium :)
Wow.... And from where did you get that news????? i find it very hard to believe.
 

TIF

U19 Debutant
Comparing the pace-attacks of India and Pakistan -

Pathan(Indias 1st pacer) > Rana(Pakistans 2nd pacer)
Zaheer(Indias 2nd pacer) > Sami(Pakistans 3rd pacer)
Agarkar(Indias 3rd pacer) << Akhtar(Pakistans 1st pacer)
RP Singh(Indias 4th pacer) = Asif(Pakistans 4th pacer)("=" sign as not too much is known about the 2 pacers as they are relatively new, however RP Singh has looked impressive in the ODIs).

Overall comparision -

Akhtar > Pathan > Rana > Zaheer > Sami > Agarkar > Asif = RP Singh
 

adharcric

International Coach
TIF said:
Comparing the pace-attacks of India and Pakistan -

Pathan(Indias 1st pacer) > Rana(Pakistans 2nd pacer)
Zaheer(Indias 2nd pacer) > Sami(Pakistans 3rd pacer)
Agarkar(Indias 3rd pacer) << Akhtar(Pakistans 1st pacer)
RP Singh(Indias 4th pacer) = Asif(Pakistans 4th pacer)("=" sign as not too much is known about the 2 pacers as they are relatively new, however RP Singh has looked impressive in the ODIs).

Overall comparision -

Akhtar > Pathan > Rana > Zaheer > Sami > Agarkar > Asif = RP Singh
dude i'm a huge indian supporter too, but it's pretty obvious that our current pace attack is inferior to the pakistani pace attack. all you have to do is twist the comparisons ...
akhtar > pathan, rana > zaheer, sami = agarkar so the pakistan attack is better, as opposed to your analysis ... all these analyses are ineffectual

pakistan has one world-class bowler in shoaib akhtar. irfan pathan and rana naved-ul-hasan are two class bowlers who perform like it. zaheer khan, mohammad sami and possibly ajit agarkar are all class bowlers who don't perform like it and thus don't make a difference in the comparison. basically, shoaib akhtar is the reason that the pakistani pace attack is superior. until zaheer & agarkar start bowling to their potential and genuine pacers like vrv singh and munaf patel break into the ranks, we don't have any claim to a superior or even an equal attack to pakistan's. face the reality, our spinners are far better but our pace battery is clearly inferior at the moment.
 
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adharcric

International Coach
also, the notion that the indian seamers are fulfilling their lowly role well enough is utter crap, this role is a result of the level of their performance. the reason it seems that the indian seamers have a lesser role to play is because they haven't shown that they are capable of playing a bigger role, so we've relegated them to this status and lowered our expectations. meanwhile, we've put the burden on proven performers kumble and bhajji. this argument of "effectiveness in roles" is a bit flawed, our pacers need to perform and that's that.
 

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