***Official*** England in India

[tooextracool]

The pitches are sometimes similar, but there is a world of difference in the overall atmosphere between Sri Lanka and India.

and by atmosphere you mean the crowd?
honestly these are minor things and even if they were to affect any player, failure in india is hardly anywhere as bad as a subcontinent player failing everywhere outside the subcontinent.

 

[chicane]

anybody who plays for 16 years is going to amass a significant number of runs anyways. some players are better at cashing in on flat wickets than others, and tendulkar is one of them

again......everybody plays sachin tendulkar only on flat pitches huh? its either you or the whole world.....thats got it all mixed up

 

[Sanz]

TEC - Please dont ruin this thread. Go back to Hibernation mode, please.

 

[tooextracool]

If he is to be considered as an all-rounder and you agree that Flintoff hasn't proved his batting outside England then doesn't that back up my claim that he hasn't completely proved himself in the subcontinent?

oh yes i do agree that he hasnt, in fact i agree with you that he isnt completely proven with the bat period. what i do think though is that he has done enough in terms of all round skills to go down as an all time great.

This should have been in reply to the Flintoff/Jones post but we are shooting so many back and forth, that I lost track

donty worry this happens in many of the discussions with me.

 

[viktor]

well you did seem to be indicating that flintoff was a failure in India, i apologize if i read incorrectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleTheOne
Flintoff is already a proven world class all rounder and providing he stays fit Jones will be on of the top top quicks in the world, they may not be quite Waqar and Wasim yet with the ball but are far more developed than Dhoni and Pathan.
yeah sorry about flintoff. i meant to edit the post but sent it accidentally. my point about jones still stands though. he might have the potential, just hasn't shown that he is a world class performer for long enough and in a variety of conditions. In fact, if you wanted to be picky, you could say the same thing about flintoff in the sub-continent.

I just meant he was a relative failure in India. But now I can see how it might have been construed differently.

 

[tooextracool]

so all these countries prepared seam friendly conditions only twice in all those games india have played, otherwise they have played on belters to perfectly suit the indian batting line-up especially sachin tendulkar?? wow how silly is that? learn from india, we always prepare horrible pitches to suit our spinners and subdue greats like ponting.

i didnt say that. tendulkar as good as he is hasnt succeeded in every innings that hes ever played and more often than not, his failures coincide with conditions that favor fast bowlers. however one 2 such occasions he actually succeeded, and i have pointed out to you those 2 occasions.

 

[Sanz]

what i do think though is that he has done enough in terms of all round skills to go down as an all time great.

 

[tooextracool]

TEC - Please dont ruin this thread. Go back to Hibernation mode, please.

i dont think im ruining this thread, i think there are healthy arguments taking place, and a lot of them have at least some relation to the thread.

 

[tooextracool]

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleTheOne
Flintoff is already a proven world class all rounder and providing he stays fit Jones will be on of the top top quicks in the world, they may not be quite Waqar and Wasim yet with the ball but are far more developed than Dhoni and Pathan.
yeah sorry about flintoff. i meant to edit the post but sent it accidentally. my point about jones still stands though. he might have the potential, just hasn't shown that he is a world class performer for long enough and in a variety of conditions. In fact, if you wanted to be picky, you could say the same thing about flintoff in the sub-continent.

I just meant he was a relative failure in India. But now I can see how it might have been construed differently.

well i hardly see the correlation here. dhoni and pathan need to prove themselves outside the subcontinent which includes NZ, WI, Australia, England and SA. Flintoff on the other hand only really needs to prove himself with the ball in India. But honestly i dont think he really needs to prove himself with the ball anymore, its more with the bat.

 

[tooextracool]

why not? his bowling itself puts him amongst the top 3 bowlers in the world at the moment. and while his batting isnt great, hes at least performed brilliantly at home and against the very best.

 

[Jono]

I love Flintoff, and he's one of my favourite cricketers to watch. But TEC do you think he's already done enough to go down an as all-time great cricketer, yet Ricky Ponting's failings in India prevent him for being such?

I mean, Flintoff still has a lot to do to go down as an all-time great. He's on his way, no doubt but I think this series will go a long way to proving that.

 

[PY]

I don't think this series will go a long way to proving he's an all-time great Jono, if he's brilliant then I still don't think he'll go down as an all-time great and same for if he's rubbish.

What will is this level of performance or increased level of performance for the next 6-7 years.

I think he's earnt the 'great' tag from his performances recently but for all-time we're talking equal or better than the big four and SirGS which IMO he has potential to do (especially with the big four, not so sure about Garry ) but he's not nearly there yet in terms of longevity of brilliance.

 

[viktor]

well i hardly see the correlation here. dhoni and pathan need to prove themselves outside the subcontinent which includes NZ, WI, Australia, England and SA. Flintoff on the other hand only really needs to prove himself with the ball in India. But honestly i dont think he really needs to prove himself with the ball anymore, its more with the bat.

I think Flintoff did a decent job with the ball in India. I didn't see the recent Pak series so I can't comment on that. So, yes, I would be inclined to agree with you that Flintoff basically needs to prove himself with the bat in India. But that still means that he hasn't proved himself to be a world-class allrounder.

In Jones' case, the correlation is more obvious.

Jones--> Not played in India/Pak--> Not yet world-class
Dhoni---> Not played outside India/Pak ---> Not yet world-class
Pathan--> Not yet proven in non-swinging conditions --> Not yet world-class

 

[tooextracool]

I love Flintoff, and he's one of my favourite cricketers to watch. But TEC do you think he's already done enough to go down an as all-time great cricketer, yet Ricky Ponting's failings in India prevent him for being such?

I mean, Flintoff still has a lot to do to go down as an all-time great. He's on his way, no doubt but I think this series will go a long way to proving that.

well maybe hes not exactly there yet, but unless he fails miserable over the next few years, i dont see any reason why he wont be.

 

[Sanz]

why not? his bowling itself puts him amongst the top 3 bowlers in the world at the moment. and while his batting isnt great, hes at least performed brilliantly at home and against the very best.

Yeah an avg. of 37 against in an era where any batsman worth his salt can score 45+ is an all time great performance, not to forget the performance in Australia.

Pop Quiz - what is Freddie's batting avg. in India ? (Clue - Ponting has a better avg. in India)

 

[chicane]

i didnt say that. tendulkar as good as he is hasnt succeeded in every innings that hes ever played and more often than not, his failures coincide with conditions that favor fast bowlers. however one 2 such occasions he actually succeeded, and i have pointed out to you those 2 occasions.

looking at the australia series....

148* at sydney - from the match report -

The weather has cleared here and it is fine and light winds
with an estimated maximum temperature of 24C. Of course, we
have had rain on 3 of the last 4 days and you'd have to
suspect that both captains will want to ask the opposition to
bat should they win the toss.

With 4 seam bowlers, and only Shastri to bowl spin, it wasn't
surprising that Azharuddin decided to send Australia in.
Border didn't seem very disappointed that he will get to bowl
last.

hmmm.....moving on....

114 at perth...some commentary

*Prabhakar is getting swing again*

*Another lifting ball
from McDermott, again swinging in as it passed, again let go.*

these two games against quality fast bowlers. then...

116, 52 sydney.....after loads of rain...

*In conditions conducive to swing bowling, Javagal Srinath (4/130) beat the edge of the bat at least twice in the first over of the day, and similarly false strokes were in frequent evidence as the first half hour unfolded.*

61 adelaide...

*On a pitch which seemed to be offering more encouragement to bowlers than is traditionally the case in Adelaide*

flat wickets? failed miserably?

 

[Jono]

I don't think this series will go a long way to proving he's an all-time great Jono, if he's brilliant then I still don't think he'll go down as an all-time great and same for if he's rubbish.

What will is this level of performance or increased level of performance for the next 6-7 years.

I think he's earnt the 'great' tag from his performances recently but for all-time we're talking equal or better than the big four and SirGS which IMO he has potential to do (especially with the big four, not so sure about Garry ) but he's not nearly there yet in terms of longevity of brilliance.

Sorry I meant if he succeeds in this series it'll go a long way in proving that he's 'on his way'. If he has a killer series and averages 18 with the ball taking 24 wickets, it'll still not make him an all-time great as you have shown. Longevity is vital. He hasn't been dominant for anywhere near long enough, and he needs to do much more with the bat all over the world.

 

[tooextracool]

I think Flintoff did a decent job with the ball in India. I didn't see the recent Pak series so I can't comment on that. So, yes, I would be inclined to agree with you that Flintoff basically needs to prove himself with the bat in India. But that still means that he hasn't proved himself to be a world-class allrounder.

In Jones' case, the correlation is more obvious.

Jones--> Not played in India/Pak--> Not yet world-class
Dhoni---> Not played outside India/Pak ---> Not yet world-class
Pathan--> Not yet proven in non-swinging conditions --> Not yet world-class

all rounders dont need to prove himself with both bat and ball in every country. you only have to look at the records of the big 4 to realise that. if you can prove yourself in either discipline in every country thats more than enough IMO. i agree with you on the others though.

 

[Jono]

all rounders dont need to prove himself with both bat and ball in every country.

That's fair enough, but an average shouldn't be allowed to be miserable too. Flintoff will probably improve his batting record in India following this tour, but for now its very very poor.

 

[tooextracool]

Yeah an avg. of 37 against in an era where any batsman worth his salt can score 45+ is an all time great performance, not to forget the performance in Australia.

Pop Quiz - what is Freddie's batting avg. in India ? (Clue - Ponting has a better avg. in India)

because of course the great all rounders like hadlee and kapil dev had such fascinating batting averages right? AFAIC, flintoff might not be a brilliant batsman, but his batting is still good enough to be winning games for his country and his bowling as i said earlier is as good as almost anyone elses in the world ATM.