Non-whites in SA cricket

[jot1]

I can't speak with first-hand certainty, but Oborne paints a convincing picture of a thriving non-white cricket scene in the 50s & 60s.

This may be peculiar to Cape Town, of course. However, given that non-whites outnumber whites in SA by over 4 to 1, interest by 11% should still equate to 3 or 4 players in a team.

Hi BoyBrumby
For the record, non-whites outnumber whites in SA by 20 to 1. Unfortunately, even though the interest has always been there among the black population for cricket, we're back to the same old problem. No money, no facilities, so no way to get into the game except by a select few who were sponsored in some way. Of course that has all changed now and things are slowly being corrected. But it takes time of course.
BTW, is this subject not being discussed in another thread?

 

[luckyeddie]

it will not happen

*cough*makhayantini*cough*

 

[BoyBrumby]

Hi BoyBrumby
For the record, non-whites outnumber whites in SA by 20 to 1. Unfortunately, even though the interest has always been there among the black population for cricket, we're back to the same old problem. No money, no facilities, so no way to get into the game except by a select few who were sponsored in some way. Of course that has all changed now and things are slowly being corrected. But it takes time of course.
BTW, is this subject not being discussed in another thread?

Is it really as much as that? This gives the white population as 12.6% of the total.


http://www.country-studies.com/south-africa/population.html

 

[jot1]

Is it really as much as that? This gives the white population as 12.6% of the total.


http://www.country-studies.com/south-africa/population.html

That is the "official estimate". The reality is something else. We have in South Africa what we call squatter camps. Hundreds of them all over the country. These are vast tracts of land on which blacks have built shacks with anything from bricks to paper. From one-roomed to a whole house. These places have no streets, no addresses, no electricity, no sanitation. The situation is absolutely appalling. There is also no way to know how many people are living in a shack at any given time, but in some cases it's been found that 8 families live in one hovel. Needless to say, these people are not included in any sensor studies, mainly because of the migrant nature of these squatters and other logistical problems. Though an averidge is estimated for each camp, (based on one "family" per shack) officials admit the number is far below the reality. It is believed here that a 20 to 1 ratio, or close to that, is a truer estimate. This includes the coloured and asian population as the criteria is non-white and not just blacks.

 

[Richard]

*cough*makhayantini*cough*

Whether he'd have played the number of Test-matches he has if he were white is a moot-point.
In ODIs, of course, he was amongst the best going around in 2000\01-2002\03. Hasn't been great from 2003 onwards, sadly.

 

[Richard]

it's funny you say that because most black players who make the squad seem to struggle just look at that guy who replaced mark boucher i couldn't believe it when boucher was dropped.

Yet Tsolekile is actually more of an isolated instance than might first seem.
And it's not as if it hasn't happened in other teams (see Chris Read, Robbie Hart, Ajay Ratra, Kamran Akmal [before yesterday], Prasanna Jayawardene, the list goes on).

 

[wpdavid]

it's funny you say that because most black players who make the squad seem to struggle just look at that guy who replaced mark boucher i couldn't believe it when boucher was dropped.

Depends on how we define "black", I suppose, but most of them haven't struggled too badly. Ntini's usually in or around the world's top ten, Ngam looked really good before injuries took over, Zondeki's played a significant part in winning the 2 tests that he's played, even if the first one was with the bat, and Langeveldt took a hatful of wickets in his one test, which was the only one SA won in the recent series. Against that, we have Tsolekile's (failed with the bat, anyway), Ontong and, to a lesser extent, Prince. Obviously if we extend the argument to coloureds & Asians, we can add Gibbs & Adams to the first list and Amla to the second. I've probably omitted some players, but the nonwhites don't seem excessively unsuccessful when you look at what has actually happened.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Depends on how we define "black", I suppose, but most of them haven't struggled too badly. Ntini's usually in or around the world's top ten, Ngam looked really good before injuries took over, Zondeki's played a significant part in winning the 2 tests that he's played, even if the first one was with the bat, and Langeveldt took a hatful of wickets in his one test, which was the only one SA won in the recent series. Against that, we have Tsolekile's (failed with the bat, anyway), Ontong and, to a lesser extent, Prince. Obviously if we extend the argument to coloureds & Asians, we can add Gibbs & Adams to the first list and Amla to the second. I've probably omitted some players, but the nonwhites don't seem excessively unsuccessful when you look at what has actually happened.

I actually think Prince & Langeveldt would be defined as "coloured" (an expression I personally find very distasteful, but still seemingly the one in most common usage to describe people of mixed-race in SA) rather than African under the old Apartheid racial classifications.

 

[wpdavid]

I actually think Prince & Langeveldt would be defined as "coloured" (an expression I personally find very distasteful, but still seemingly the one in most common usage to describe people of mixed-race in SA) rather than African under the old Apartheid racial classifications.

Fair enough - I was probably pushing my luck attempting some sort of summary of who's done what under SA's tortuous racial classifications.

 

[Richard]

It's "previously disadvantaged", the official line.
Which covers all non-completely-whites, but also includes women.
Thing is, Prince and Amla have beyond question earned their go.

 

[Richard]

Ntini's usually in or around the world's top ten, Ngam looked really good before injuries took over

I actually rate Ngam the better Test-match bowler, if he's still bowling like he was 4 years ago (which I don't know, not having seen him)

Zondeki's played a significant part in winning the 2 tests that he's played

I found myself scratching my head as to why he was selected.
Then I watched him bowl.
And it astounds me that his First-Class average isn't lower.

 

[username1234]

all i hope is that south africa doesn't turn out to be another zimbabwe it seem's to be on the verge of doing so.

 

[Richard]

Oh no!
Zimbabwe's been wrecked - it's been being gradually wrecked since 1998, then it took pace in about 2001 and has gathered every week virtually. There was no reason why cricket should escape.
But South Africa, fortunately, is not ruled by a mad dictator and as such they're safe for the time being.

 

[Marius]

I know what you mean and I can certainly see exactly what you suggested happening had Steyn been black.
But to select Tsolekile when there were 2 or 3 better candidates (including the current incumbant) was just plain madness.
It also gets the waters muddied when people include players like Zander de Bruyn in the "quota beneficiaries"; and to an extent Alfonso Thomas.
If those 2 had got more opportunities I'm pretty sure they'd be ensconsed in the side by now.
Interestingly, all SA's last 5 ODI debutants have been white; Duminy and Van Wyk got an especially raw deal and Rudolph has been mistreated recently (though more to do with the typical mixing-up of Tests and ODIs I feel than anything to do with the quotas).
Some players to play internationals who are palpably not up-to-standard in the recent past: Ontong, Peterson, Kent, Tsolekile, Amla, Steyn, Pretorious. There's also been Zondeki whose selection was dubious but who actually looks a more than useful bowler on the little I've seen of him.
But can you see the problem? There was absolutely no good reason except the typical "variation" rubbish why Ontong and Peterson should get picked; Amla unquestionably earned his go, as did Pretorious; and Tsolekile and Steyn, well... stupid selections, Steyn mostly because of the "must have pace" thing doing the rounds at selection tables for the last 2 years or so... as for Kent, I've absolutely no idea why he was picked. Maybe they got him mixed-up with Kemp like I did at first.
Charl Willoughby's case doesn't help, either - by the fact that he's non-white and is a fantastic bowler at domestic level and has bowled a heap of garbage - inexplicably - at the Test and ODI level.
But either way - there are a lot of muddied waters, and you're quite right - perhaps they do somewhat exaggerate what is merely a small problem akin to the many others at selection tables.

De Bruyn is white and Duminy is coloured

 

[Marius]

all i hope is that south africa doesn't turn out to be another zimbabwe it seem's to be on the verge of doing so.

Where's your proof, you racist Kiwi clown.

 

[Marius]

well there's your answer maybe all the good white players play in the top grade.

Good white players do play in the league you muppet, its just that in Gauteng, areas like Joburg and Pretoria have better leagues. The Morkel brothers and Andre Nel are all from the East Rand.

 

[Richard]

De Bruyn is white and Duminy is coloured

de Bruyn is white?
First I've heard of that! I always thought he was coloured (and he certainly looks coloured).
As for Duminy, I didn't realise he was coloured, I've never seen him.
Looks a hell of a player, though.

 

[Marius]

That's one of the ironies of South Africa, often whites (normally Afrikaners) look almost coloured, and nine times out of ten, they are the most racist. The coloureds are a very diverse group, some could almost pass for white, while some look like they are black.

 

[Neil Pickup]

How long do we reckon until the UCBSA forgets about what colour people are, drops quotas entirely, and starts picking purely on merit?

Is ten years enough to forget?

 

[Richard]

Never?
Tomorrow?
Your guess is as good as mine.