Malcolm Marshall vs Jack Hobbs

[Slifer]

Hobbs vs Marshall is apples and oranges afaic. Hobbs stood out and all but he played at a time when the sport was in its infancy and there were only two decent teams. Marshall didn't stand out as much but that's only because cricket had developed much more by the time he came around. Even with all that, no bowler with 200 wkts averages lower than Malcolm. For Hobbs yes, only Sutcliffe averages more as an opener but if you expand it to all batsmen, there are more than a handful.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Hobbs vs Marshall is apples and oranges afaic. Hobbs stood out and all but he played at a time when the sport was in its infancy and there were only two decent teams. Marshall didn't stand out as much but that's only because cricket had developed much more by the time he came around. Even with all that, no bowler with 200 wkts averages lower than Malcolm. For Hobbs yes, only Sutcliffe averages more as an opener but if you expand it to all batsmen, there are more than a handful.

Also if you lower the wicket counts to 150, Davidson, Bumrah and Barnes do average less than Marshall.

 

[kyear2]

Then how it's a no contest for Lillee precisely??

The WSC record, and that when he retired was acclaimed as the best pacer ever?

 

[capt_Luffy]

The WSC record, and that when he retired was acclaimed as the best pacer ever?

His reputation is really the sole reason, WSC was a pacers heaven, where mid pacers like Ray Bright have excellent record.

 

[kyear2]

Imran Khan.

No really man, then Marshall should had cut his pace? No??? You can spin it however you want, 8 years isn't long enough for me

Imran played how many more years and only 7 more tests and missed how many of those tests as a bowler. And Marshall had a much heavier first class schedule as well.

Playing longer for the same amount of tests proves what exactly? Had the same workload. We played a lot.....

 

[capt_Luffy]

Imran played how many more years and only 7 more tests and missed how many of those tests as a bowler. And Marshall had a much heavier first class schedule as well.

Playing longer for the same amount of tests proves what exactly? Had the same workload. We played a lot.....

Imran did have a higher workload for his team, significantly higher actually..... But on the point, it proves they were able to be on the field for much longer. Man, something has happened to all your arguments recently.

 

[kyear2]

Imran did have a higher workload for his team, significantly higher actually..... But on the point, it proves they were able to be on the field for much longer. Man, something has happened to all your arguments recently.

88 tests, vs 81. Much more concentrated test schedule and one was express for most of his career. That's not to mention that we similarly don't factor in Imran's first couple tours, especially vs England because he wasn't up to his standard at that point and every argument about his bowling involves his peak which was the same '80's.

One also had a significantly higher FC workload.

If you don't see how a concentrated work load for an express pacer vs 5 more test for a medium pacer over a much more relaxed schedule is basically the same, then you're just looking for excuses.

Express pacers have a higher value over a shorter period of time. If you want to knock him for it, have at it. But none of them had the concentrated schedule that the WI had to deal with, plus the FC demand that existed during his test career.

 

[capt_Luffy]

88 tests, vs 81. Much more concentrated test schedule and one was express for most of his career. That's not to mention that we similarly don't factor in Imran's first couple tours, especially vs England because he wasn't up to his standard at that point and every argument about his bowling involves his peak which was the same '80's.

One also had a significantly higher FC workload.

If you don't see how a concentrated work load for an express pacer vs 5 more test for a medium pacer over a much more relaxed schedule is basically the same, then you're just looking for excuses.

Express pacers have a higher value over a shorter period of time. If you want to knock him for it, have at it. But none of them had the concentrated schedule that the WI had to deal with, plus the FC demand that existed during his test career.

Wasim Akram.

I want my best pacer to play for as many years as possible. As simple as that. Loose pace later down, so be it.

 

[kyear2]

Wasim Akram.

I want my best pacer to play for as many years as possible. As simple as that. Loose pace later down, so be it.

This is how I know you're just throwing stuff against the wall.

Not two days ago someone was making the argument that to judge Wasim you have to take away the start of his career when he wasn't ready, and the end of his career when he was not at his physical best.

What's the point of racking up tests when you're not effective or just saying for longevity sake.

Same reason I vote no on Anderson, what's the purpose of quantity over quality? Ponting would have been better off retiring sooner.

Was Wasim a better bowler than Marshall? No. Do you want the best ever for 81 or a great who wasn't near his best or effective at the begining or end but was there? And Wasim wasn't express.

I don't get these arguments.

 

[capt_Luffy]

This is how I know you're just throwing stuff against the wall.

Not two days ago someone was making the argument that to judge Wasim you have to take away the start of his career when he wasn't ready, and the end of his career when he was not at his physical best.

What's the point of racking up tests when you're not effective or just saying for longevity sake.

Same reason I vote no on Anderson, what's the purpose of quantity over quality? Ponting would have been better off retiring sooner.

Was Wasim a better bowler than Marshall? No. Do you want the best ever for 81 or a great who wasn't near his best or effective at the begining or end but was there? And Wasim wasn't express.

I don't get these arguments.

Among the Top 10 pacers of all time, everyone but Trueman was indisputable for their team for more than 8 years. That's what I am getting at. Express pacer (can't reduce pace for fitness), more workload (while surrounded by other ATGs), etc. aren't enough convincing to me. Marshall is still the best bowler of all time for me; but this is not a non factor when comparing to other similar ATGs.

 

[subshakerz]

Longevity is perfectly fine for an express pacer, actually better than most. Tyson, Bishop, early Lillee, Holding, Shoaib.

Marshall isn't exceptional why it comes to longevity is the point. Relatively short peak (83 - 89) in terms of years compared to Hadlee and McGrath.

Gavaskar, Miandad, Gooch, Gower, Crowe, Border, and that's just the greats and the two ATGs. Most teams had pretty decent batting lineups. He faced better players than Hobbs did.

The average batting strength of sides he faced IMO was relatively low. Aus, Eng, Pak all had weaker batting sides than they had in the 70s. Didn't face his own lineup like Imran and Hadlee. Steyn and McGrath definitely faced stronger average lineups.

To be clear, Marshall is still no.1, but I think these are reasons he isnt well ahead of the others and deserving a near perfect rating.

 

[h_hurricane]

What's the point of racking up tests when you're not effective or just saying for longevity sake.

You can still contribute to your team even if you are not at your absolute best by being better than your replacement. That is what Wasim did outside his peak.
I saw Marshall in the B&H odi series 1991-92 and the subsequent WC. He was done as a bowler and barely had any pace. Early retirement protected his stats though I don't mean to say that he did it deliberately to cushion his stats.

 

[ankitj]

Equal in primary skill. But Hobbs' slip fielding outweighs Marshall's lower order batting. So Hobbs.

 

[kyear2]

You can still contribute to your team even if you are not at your absolute best by being better than your replacement. That is what Wasim did outside his peak.
I saw Marshall in the B&H odi series 1991-92 and the subsequent WC. He was done as a bowler and barely had any pace. Early retirement protected his stats though I don't mean to say that he did it deliberately to cushion his stats.

Greenidge, Richards, Dujon and Marshall didn't "retire"

What I'm saying is that express bowlers would have a shorter shelf life than a medium pacer, most of them break down early career. He was an exception to that and had a full 80 off test career.

Hadlee and Imran may have played longer but in the same ball park of tests, so the production and output was the same. Not to add that Hadlee after his early career drastically cut back his pace and was at best fast medium. To cram a work load of 81 tests into that period for an fast bowler is an incredible load, and he never gave less than his all. Good enough for me.

But everyone is entitled to rate players as they chose.

 

[trundler]

Equal in primary skill. But Hobbs' slip fielding outweighs Marshall's lower order batting. So Hobbs.

Hobbs fielded at cover point.

 

[ankitj]

Hobbs fielded at cover point.

Look at this fact checking nazi

 

[Sunil1z]

Was Hobbs a better fielder than Muralitharan?

 

[Coronis]

Greenidge, Richards, Dujon and Marshall didn't "retire"

What did they do then?

Anyway random meaningless impulse I had.

Marshall last test 1991, last FC match 1996
McGrath last test 2007, also last FC match
Hadlee last test 1990, also last FC match
Murali last test 2010, also last FC match
Warne last test 2007, last FC match 2007
Steyn last test 2019, also last FC match
Ambrose last test 2000, also last FC match

Marshall played in the County Championship til 93, played in the Castle (Currie) Cup from 92/93 til 95/96. Warne played in the County Championship in 07.

 

[capt_Luffy]

What did they do then?

Anyway random meaningless impulse I had.

Marshall last test 1991, last FC match 1996
McGrath last test 2007, also last FC match
Hadlee last test 1990, also last FC match
Murali last test 2010, also last FC match
Warne last test 2007, last FC match 2007
Steyn last test 2019, also last FC match
Ambrose last test 2000, also last FC match

So Marshall's last FC game was 5 years after he retired from Tests.....hmmmm

 

[subshakerz]

Marshall isn't exceptional why it comes to longevity is the point. Relatively short peak (83 - 89) in terms of years compared to Hadlee and McGrath.


The average batting strength of sides he faced IMO was relatively low. Aus, Eng, Pak all had weaker batting sides than they had in the 70s. Didn't face his own lineup like Imran and Hadlee. Steyn and McGrath definitely faced stronger average lineups.

To be clear, Marshall is still no.1, but I think these are reasons he isnt well ahead of the others and deserving a near perfect rating.

Also I think Marshalls record in Australia is not quite as impressive compared to a lot of other ATGs.