Major England ODI Overhaul Needed

[Richard]

Look like i said, i dont have any problems with either of those bowlers. missing an inswinger by miles at 83 mph is a joke. I dont care who you are or what you've done, good players dont even miss 90 mph swingers by such a distance.

As far as the Fernando slower ball is concerned, its not just about not picking it, its about trying to hit a ball like that OTT which really was ridiculous in those circumstances. At the moment he has absolutely no idea whether to attack or defend and by and large hes looked pathetic when attempting to do either. I'll be incredibly disappointed if he doesnt play as much county cricket as possible before the first test against WI.

I'd be happy for him to play, but only as a batsman. Having him bowl for Lancs would be plain madness IMO. But playing alone won't help either, he needs to net, and net plenty. Ideally somewhere away from the limelight. Just getting away from the limelight full-stop couldn't be a better idea for me right now.

 

[Pup Clarke]

What does alot of net practise really achieve Richard?.It really doesn't offer game like situations.

 

[Richard]

So why does anyone bother?

Look, there are limits to what net-practice can achieve, of course there are, but the problems Flintoff is currently having are IMO best sorted by a good hard few days of nets. As I've said a good few times - he's really not that good a batsman ITBT, but he's better than what we've seen from him in recent ODIs. And he could well shift into Pulverised Overdrive against West Indies, at least, if not India.

A good net can do wonders sometimes.

 

[Swervy]

So why does anyone bother?

Look, there are limits to what net-practice can achieve, of course there are, but the problems Flintoff is currently having are IMO best sorted by a good hard few days of nets. As I've said a good few times - he's really not that good a batsman ITBT, but he's better than what we've seen from him in recent ODIs. And he could well shift into Pulverised Overdrive against West Indies, at least, if not India.

A good net can do wonders sometimes.

richards coaching prowess comes to the fore yet again!!!

 

[Richard]

So you believe otherwise?

If so - on what grounds do you base said belief?

Extensive reading coaching manuels?

 

[prakesh]

I hear Michael Vaughan's batting really well in the nets...

 

[tooextracool]

A good net can do wonders sometimes.

and clearly that is something that he has not been doing lately......


I'm fairly certain that Flintoff bats plenty in the nets, but there is no substitute for practice in a real match situation. Nets are good if you want to work on certain aspects of your technique, but in a live match you have conditions, fielders and a whole bunch of other factors that come into the equation.

 

[marc71178]

What, like one mistake and that could be the end of the innings?

 

[Richard]

The fact is, Flintoff needs both IMO, and with the way he's been going recently it's unlikely he'll last too long in a game situation.

 

[tooextracool]

The fact is, Flintoff needs both IMO, and with the way he's been going recently it's unlikely he'll last too long in a game situation.

which is exactly why playing in a game situation is so important. its nowhere near the situation where you can get bowled one ball and then hit the next ball for a 6.

Flintoff has presumably done plenty of nets not just during this WC but over his career and if you honestly think that playing solely in the nets is going to get him back into form in the near future then you have to be kidding yourself.

 

[Bob Bamber]

1. Marcus Trescothick / Mal Loye - All depends on whether Trescothick is mentally fit , if not Loye. We need to take advantage of the first 15.
2. James Benning - He scores runs quickly , and its time to get this young kid in the side and start building for the future.
3. Kevin Pietersen - Needs to get in as quickly as possible.
4. Andrew Flintoff - Has to be up the order , so he can sort his batting out.
5. Paul Collingwood - To consolidate
6. Owais Shah - More quick run scoring , its time to get him into the team.
7. Ravi Bopara - Sri Lanka game proved enough for me , has it in him to dig the team out of a hole. But can score quickly when needed to.
8. Paul Nixon - Whether or not he makes it until the next World Cup , there isn't anyone else good enough to fill the one day role at the moment.
9. Adil Rashid/Monty Panesar - One or the other , there the only two good spinners England have. Although it might be a bit early for Rashid.
10. Stuart Broad - Theres no time to wait now. Hes good enough , so get him in there.
11. Jon Lewis - Bowls with decent control most of the time , and could frustrate the opposition.

My reasons behind the team.

- Sod having anyone to 'sit there and slowly make runs' its time to play One Day Internationals properly. Collingwood only gets in there because he's a too good all round player.
- Bowlers who can bowl straight. Plunkett , Anderson and Mahmood need more time. They've got to learn to bowl straight , with Broad , Flintoff and Lewis England have the three bowlers who should be able to do that.
- No Ian Bell. I've been a fan of Bell. But he doesn't instill confidence in me. And Pietersen and Flintoff need to be up the order.
- Shah and Bopara - They score quickly and they've got that young arrogance about them.

 

[aussie]

Agreed that England ODI team needs a overhaul, but its no sense looking at building for the 2011 WC immediately, we tried it after the 99 WC buy dropping Stewart from the ODI side because the board at the time reckoned he wouldn't be in the 2003 WC & yet he was one of the key players then. Not even Australia after the 2003 WC started planning immediately for the current cup, England just need to take it one year at a time & pick the best ODI players available.

For the upcoming home ODI's vs WI & IND, my best XI would be:

Trescothick - A very important man at the top of the order in the ODI side, was clearly missed during the WC, once ready again should be welcomed back with open arms.

Vaughan - I am willing to give him one last chance, the game vs West Indies yesterday was the first time i have ever seen Vaughan improvise as a batsman in his ODI career so maybe he is finally getting it. If he stutters this summer he will have to go.

Bell - just needs to convert more of his starts into 100's but he is one of the better top-order ODI players England have so i'll stick with him.

KP - no explanation needed.

Bopara - deserves his place

Flintoff - no explantion needed, regardless of his little bad run with the blade.

Nixon - even though i think Pothas would still be a better choice, Nixon has done enough to hold his place for the intial part of the summer at least.

Plunkett/Panesar - depending on conditions they can be rotated

S Jones - has the ability to become a real strike bowler in the ODI, deserves a run now

Anderson - most experienced ODI bowler should keep playing.

some backup players that should be considered:

Dalrymple - good utility player should be around the ODI side

Lewis - has been one of the better ODI bowlers for a while should stick with him

Loye - definately the kind of batsman that the ODI side requires, just needs to be more consistent.

Shah - needs a good season for Middlesex to get back into the reckoning, but aggressive batsmen like him are needed in the ODI side.

Mascarenhas - really its time he is given a run in the, his all-round ability would add much needed versatility to the ODI side.

Ali Rashid - a very good all-round player in the making, should be in the ODI side fairly soon.

 

[Bob Bamber]

Vaughan - I am willing to give him one last chance, the game vs West Indies yesterday was the first time i have ever seen Vaughan improvise as a batsman in his ODI career so maybe he is finally getting it. If he stutters this summer he will have to go.

Loye - definately the kind of batsman that the ODI side requires, just needs to be more consistent.
.

You choose Vaughan , and then justify not playing Loye for that reason... Are you sure.

It was an innings too late for Vaughan. On a good (but all the same flat wicket) , he was lucky not to be caught , and could have been run out about 4-5 times. Too late Vaughany , its time to go.

 

[gunner]

this would be my team for the match against the windies

tresco
strauss
vaughn/bell
pieterson
shah(should be at 3 but is better at playing with tailenders than anyone else in this team)
flintoff
read
hoggard
harmison
jones
monty

i would get collingwood out of the side cos hes just a bit part player in the team,
sure when jones was injured england had to find that extra bowler but now thats he seems to be abck they need a specialist batsman and shah fits the bill

 

[Richard]

which is exactly why playing in a game situation is so important. its nowhere near the situation where you can get bowled one ball and then hit the next ball for a 6.

Flintoff has presumably done plenty of nets not just during this WC but over his career and if you honestly think that playing solely in the nets is going to get him back into form in the near future then you have to be kidding yourself.

I certainly don't, and that's why I think he's in need of both net and game time.

And while he might have been netting these last 12 months or so, my bet is that it'd be the same sort of nets Atherton talks of in 1996, where he got no real meaningful practice in. He then got a good 3-hour session in the quiet of an indoor school in New Zealand and sorted-out many problems. I think Flintoff possibly might be in a similar position.

Because, as I say, if he bats in a game right now he's not gonna last too long.

 

[tooextracool]

1. Marcus Trescothick / Mal Loye - All depends on whether Trescothick is mentally fit , if not Loye. We need to take advantage of the first 15..

I dont see the point of having Mal Loye in the side for 2 reasons.

1) hes clearly not international standard, his footwork is woeful at best and his stroke play against good bowlers is restricted to the slog sweep. While he may provide a decent start more often than not, hes still nothing more than a pinch hitter option that most good bowlers will have no problems getting out. If he scored a bucketful of runs when he played then i would consider him.
2) At 35 if we were to select him, he'd be nothing more than a Darren Gough option, and we saw how Gough fell away despite a fairly decent start after the 2003 wc. England need to get their players as many games as possible, so that a lot of their players have the experience of ODI cricket before the next world cup, rather than picking players who have no future, when they are many options that are just as good around.

9. Adil Rashid/Monty Panesar - One or the other , there the only two good spinners England have. Although it might be a bit early for Rashid.

good? Rashid has almost no experience in list A cricket, his record in those games is 46 @ 6.27. Panesar similarly was picked too early in a form of the game which he is clearly very poor at and even in favorable bowling conditions in the WI was hammered all over the place. Panesar needs to get experience in domestic cricket before he plays international ODI cricket, in fact i would venture to say that he was picked too early in test match cricket as well but due to the dearth in English spinners he had to.

Neither are good enough to play ODI cricket, in fact England were better off with Giles in the side who was actually somewhat competent in ODIs(while not so much in tests)

No Ian Bell. I've been a fan of Bell. But he doesn't instill confidence in me. And Pietersen and Flintoff need to be up the order.

I think Bell has potential. Hes a bit like Dravid used to be when he started, but we've seen plenty of innings from him that have been off the top drawer. I'd have him in the side as i feel by the time we get around to the next world cup he will be quite good at it.

 

[tooextracool]

I certainly don't, and that's why I think he's in need of both net and game time.

And while he might have been netting these last 12 months or so, my bet is that it'd be the same sort of nets Atherton talks of in 1996, where he got no real meaningful practice in. He then got a good 3-hour session in the quiet of an indoor school in New Zealand and sorted-out many problems. I think Flintoff possibly might be in a similar position.

Because, as I say, if he bats in a game right now he's not gonna last too long.

why do you think a quite net session will make so much of a difference. As such i will be quite surprised if i hear that he hasnt had more than a dozen quiet net sessions in recent times.
Like i said saying that he should get a good net is redundant, because he should be getting that anyways. The point is that he should be released immediately to play county cricket in England.

 

[tooextracool]

On Simon Jones, did anyone watch him bowl for Glamorgan against Somerset? Scorecards reveal 3/56 from 10 which isnt really quite so bad for someone returning from injury.

 

[ozone]

1. Marcus Trescothick / Mal Loye - All depends on whether Trescothick is mentally fit , if not Loye. We need to take advantage of the first 15.
2. James Benning - He scores runs quickly , and its time to get this young kid in the side and start building for the future.
3. Kevin Pietersen - Needs to get in as quickly as possible.
4. Andrew Flintoff - Has to be up the order , so he can sort his batting out.
5. Paul Collingwood - To consolidate
6. Owais Shah - More quick run scoring , its time to get him into the team.
7. Ravi Bopara - Sri Lanka game proved enough for me , has it in him to dig the team out of a hole. But can score quickly when needed to.
8. Paul Nixon - Whether or not he makes it until the next World Cup , there isn't anyone else good enough to fill the one day role at the moment.
9. Adil Rashid/Monty Panesar - One or the other , there the only two good spinners England have. Although it might be a bit early for Rashid.
10. Stuart Broad - Theres no time to wait now. Hes good enough , so get him in there.
11. Jon Lewis - Bowls with decent control most of the time , and could frustrate the opposition.

Generally agree. However, I'd have Vaughan in there somewhere for his captaincy alone. Also, when not playing the spinner, he could help with the fifth bowler overs. IMO, Shah is just not what is needed so I would drop him. He doesn't score particularly quickly and I couldn't see him bowling with Bopara and Collingwood in the team.

I would include James Anderson instead of Lewis and not pick Loye because I feel that their time has gone and they are not going to improve the team. For the spinner, it has to be Panesar at the moment. Rashid is still too young and Panesar needs to be given a decent run in the team. On seamer friendly pitches, I would have Plunkett for his superior batting, although I could see someone else getting in ahead of him if he doesn't improve his accuracy with the new ball.

My final team would be:

1. Trescothick
2. Benning
3. Vaughan
4. Pietersen
5. Collingwood
6. Bopara
7. Flintoff
8. Nixon
9. Panesar/Plunkett
10. Broad
11. Anderson

 

[ozone]

On Simon Jones, did anyone watch him bowl for Glamorgan against Somerset? Scorecards reveal 3/56 from 10 which isnt really quite so bad for someone returning from injury.

He's still never really been a one day bowler although he's never really had the chance at international level. IMO he should have to prove himself at county level before he gets in the ODI team.