Lyon Vs Harbhajan

[ankitj]

Lyon definitely. Over 400 wickets, a WPM of 4 wickets a match, with flat pitches in Australia as his home, playing mostly in a tough decade for spinners. Class performances in most countries. Respect.

You mean to say career didn't coincide with Warne and Murali?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Lyon is a much better bowler than he often gets credit for imo. Does a quality support job in most series where his pace attack can carry the wicket taking load, and in Asian conditions, he's honestly done better than most other recent overseas spinners have. He legitimately matched Ashwin/Jadeja blow for blow in the 2017 series, a performance that doesn't get enough plaudits. Much better than Harbhajan, honestly think he's on the same level as someone like Herath who gets a lot more love on CW (and this is coming from a Herath fanboy).

 

[subshakerz]

You mean to say career didn't coincide with Warne and Murali?

Nah, 2000 onwards in Australia, it is very difficult for spinners to do well. Even Warne averaged over 30 there.

 

[Coronis]

Australia has enough of a history of producing good and, at times, great spinners that I don't buy the argument that Lyon's record is disadvantaged by playing his home matches there and not in India.

However, I still voted for him. He's the definition of consistent really whereas Harbhajan declined badly in the second half of his career. Struggle to think of anything iconic or memorable Lyon has done though.

Except that almost all great Aussie spinners have a worse home record than away?

 

[subshakerz]

Lyon is a much better bowler than he often gets credit for imo. Does a quality support job in most series where his pace attack can carry the wicket taking load, and in Asian conditions, he's honestly done better than most other recent overseas spinners have. He legitimately matched Ashwin/Jadeja blow for blow in the 2017 series, a performance that doesn't get enough plaudits. Much better than Harbhajan, honestly think he's on the same level as someone like Herath who gets a lot more love on CW (and this is coming from a Herath fanboy).

Little credit to Lyon for matchwinning spells last year in Pakistan and SL, or even once in the Ashes 2019. He was also awesome in this last test.

Since 2017, he has been a very good bowler.

 

[honestbharani]

So we are going to conveniently disregard the great argument that saltshakerz put forth about the batter friendly noughties and bowler friendly 10s which was used to argue that Harby was > Ashwin?

 

[OverratedSanity]

So we are going to conveniently disregard the great argument that saltshakerz put forth about the batter friendly noughties and bowler friendly 10s which was used to argue that Harby was > Ashwin?

Australia has remained tough for spinners. India hasn't.

 

[honestbharani]

Australia has remained tough for spinners. India hasn't.

India never was.

EDIT - And I guess DRS only benefitted Ashwin over Harbhajan. Not the other offies who played in his era.

 

[OverratedSanity]

India never was.

Late 2000s-early 2010s were pretty flat imo.

 

[honestbharani]

Late 2000s-early 2010s were pretty flat imo.

Yeah, so why does that count only against Ashwin and not against Lyon? Also, pretty flat is subjective. They were flatter than the tracks we had since 2015, yes but they were not flat per se.

If anything, Lyon playing on seamer friendly wickets in Aus and away except the SC with that seam attack usually means batsmen are more susceptible to try and go after him or take it easier against him and get out that way, which has often happened, tbf.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah, so why does that count only against Ashwin and not against Lyon? Also, pretty flat is subjective. They were flatter than the tracks we had since 2015, yes but they were not flat per se.

If anything, Lyon playing on seamer friendly wickets in Aus and away except the SC with that seam attack usually means batsmen are more susceptible to try and go after him or take it easier against him and get out that way, which has often happened, tbf.

Australia's pitches haven't changed much when it comes to aiding spin atleast when compared to India.

Anyway the thread isn't about how good Ashwin is , rather about how much Harbhajan sucked.

 

[anil1405]

Lyon is a much better bowler than he often gets credit for imo. Does a quality support job in most series where his pace attack can carry the wicket taking load, and in Asian conditions, he's honestly done better than most other recent overseas spinners have. He legitimately matched Ashwin/Jadeja blow for blow in the 2017 series, a performance that doesn't get enough plaudits. Much better than Harbhajan, honestly think he's on the same level as someone like Herath who gets a lot more love on CW (and this is coming from a Herath fanboy).

This is a way better way of justifying why Lyon is better instead of randomly saying pitches in Aus were flat and the era was not conducive to spinners blah blah.

 

[honestbharani]

Australia's pitches haven't changed much when it comes to aiding spin atleast when compared to India.

Anyway the thread isn't about how good Ashwin is , rather about how much Harbhajan sucked.

My second point tells you why it does matter. And yeah, still think Harby is easily better than Lyon.

 

[Ali TT]

My reckoning is that Indian wickets have become more conducive to spin bowling across the whole match in the past decade, whereas in the 00s day one and two would be good times to fill your boots as a batter before the pitch deteriorated. I don't think they want a repeat of Alastair Cook in 2012. That and the fact very few modern batters, Indians included, have the patience and technique to play spin bowling on a turning deck.

None of that changes that I still think over his career Lyon has the edge over Harbhajan, but the latter was probably a better bowler at their respective peaks.

 

[Flem274*]

Lyon is a much better bowler than he often gets credit for imo. Does a quality support job in most series where his pace attack can carry the wicket taking load, and in Asian conditions, he's honestly done better than most other recent overseas spinners have. He legitimately matched Ashwin/Jadeja blow for blow in the 2017 series, a performance that doesn't get enough plaudits. Much better than Harbhajan, honestly think he's on the same level as someone like Herath who gets a lot more love on CW (and this is coming from a Herath fanboy).

I agree. The expected average/sr plus impact anal-sis puts Lyon in the ATVGs, but that's for another time soon.

 

[Spark]

The thing about Lyon is that by most reasonable measures he's actually really good. It's just that he so obviously could be so much better with a few apparently minor adjustments that he just steadfastly refuses to make that it makes watching him really quite frustrating.

Like, Lyon who consistently bowed about six inches wider of off stump than he does would be one hell of a bowler.

 

[_00_deathscar]

good poll derailed by the joke options

The joke options being Lyon and Bhaji?