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Lara v Hayden

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Finally, today, ladies and gentlemen:
Neither of these two have much of what I consider style. Lara's drive and cut can occasionally but more often he is a biffer. I can never enjoy a Hayden innings because it's too much of the big swing and the heavy bat, just like Flintoff.
Style is completely irrelevant, as I have just discussed, when considering ability, but it's everything when I think of who I'd like to watch make a guranteed innings.
I'd just go for a Lara 120 against a Hayden 120 if you offered me the choice, but only just.
I don't give a flying **** about scoring pace when it comes to aesthetics, style is all I look for.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
Richard said:
Once someone has been dropped, missed stumped or given not-out incorrectly the innings should be over, so I count it as such. Otherwise you get too much inconsistency from player to player. However, you must be realistic about what you call a chance or an error.
I've got a major problem with this (as you well know) because of one glaringly obvious omission - and it's one you can never resolve without a crystal ball.

It doesn't take into account the situation when the bad decision has gone against the batsman. A guy gets given out when he shouldn't have been. He scored 10. Perhaps he would have scored 50, 100, 200, 381 even.

It is my firm belief that over a long period of time, this sort of anomaly will agerage out - there's not really such a thing as an 'unlucky' or a 'lucky' player over a career - only over a short term. Dropped catches are part of the game - so, unfortunately, are bad decisions.

You mentioned Bradman.

Have you any idea what Bradman's career average should have been by your reckoning? Of course not - no evidence exists regarding any of his innings regarding chances offered and spurned, good or bad umpiring decisions and the like.

I think you're wasting your time.
 

PY

International Coach
Richard said:
Neither of these two have much of what I consider style. Lara's drive and cut can occasionally but more often he is a biffer.
:O

That's such complete and utter tripe.

Things like this thread all come down to preference of batting style so can't really be argued. :)

PS Nationality also plays a fairly high part in who you prefer also ;)
 

gibbsnsmith

State Vice-Captain
Lara...no style???


who the f*ck does then? Courtney Walsh?


Look, all my life ive let people have their opions, etc, but f*cking hell man. Along with Mark Waugh and SRT, Brian Lara are some of the most sublime, elgant and stylish batsmen i have seen. That is THE most ludicrous comment i have seen for a while.
 

iamdavid

International Debutant
JohnnyA said:
Oh wait ... you're an Australian ... problem solved ;)
HAHAHa , sure we havent won a series against them for what ?.......16 years , but still lets just laugh at them cause their Australian:yawn:
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
iamdavid said:
HAHAHa , sure we havent won a series against them for what ?.......16 years , but still lets just laugh at them cause their Australian:yawn:
<quack> First sensible thing an Australian's said in ages.

Devil Ducky!!! You racist.

<quack> I didn't mean it. LE dictated that while holding a gin to my head.

A gin? Don't you mean a gun?

<quack> you do it your way, I'll do it mine.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Richard said:
Hayden, sweep Murali?
Don't make me laugh.
Any left-hander try constantly sweeping Murali, they'll pay for it in a matter of overs.
If Hayden's got any sense he'll go into his shell and block, like all other decent lefties have done.
Last check Lara is a left-hander and he's scored a run or two against Murali in recent times. He certainly doesn't cut the sweep shot out of his game either. In fact, Lara's sweep shot is the reason he's dominated Murali and Sri Lanka.
 

Eclipse

International Debutant
Richard mate some of the rubish you come up with I mean seriously you construct about the worst arguments I have ever seen and then expect us to take them seriously.

Not only that you a treat other people like they know bugger all when they try to express an opinion witch is totaly unfair given what you come up with.

And stop saying things as if there facts when all they are is your personal opinion.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
In a debate such as this, you must use stats. However, as I stated above, you must also consider the abstract factors which occurred in the process of gaining those stats. eg batting support, opposition, pressure, length of time playing etc.
I agree 100% with you Mr Mxyzptlk.There have times in Lara's career where he has had to bat for the entire team, despite it containing the likes of Hooper and Chanderpaul in it.

But of late people like Chanderpaul has started to turn his 50s into 100s and Sarwan is starting to show more responsiblity and Jacobs has always be Mr Reliable of West Indies cricket. And in that it takes so much pressure of Lara.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Craig said:
But of late people like Chanderpaul has started to turn his 50s into 100s and Sarwan is starting to show more responsiblity and Jacobs has always be Mr Reliable of West Indies cricket. And in that it takes so much pressure of Lara.
And as a result of others finally stepping up and scoring runs, Lara's batting has been much more at ease of late. He has 1871 runs in his last 18 games at 71.96 per knock. This includes 6 hundreds (2 double hundreds) and 8 fifties.

Brian Lara has the more profound effect on his team IMO. In games that the West Indies have won/drawn, Lara has scored 13 hundreds, 23 fifties with an average of 61.55 and a total of 4986 runs. His average is exactly 10 points higher than his career average when we don't lose. That gives a bit of an indication as to how much pressure there is on Lara to perform.
 

Slats4ever

International Vice-Captain
I think it's safe to say that Lara is a true champion. As much as I love Aussies and big Matt the Bat I have to say on this one Brian has it over our boy. Both are bloody awesome for their various sizes, Matt the big imposing player with Brian the little crafty man... it's hard to compare the two due to this difference in physique.

But the fact that Lara's done it for so long, been at the top of the scales for oh so very long... been batting well when West Indian Cricket's been hopeless... put aside personal problems and just got on with his career shows that Lara is truley the best bat of this generation.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
Last check Lara is a left-hander and he's scored a run or two against Murali in recent times. He certainly doesn't cut the sweep shot out of his game either. In fact, Lara's sweep shot is the reason he's dominated Murali and Sri Lanka.
How did he play the shot? Slogged-sweep, dab behind square, big swing of the arms?
And more importantly, did he play it to a very specific length? If not, I'm amazed.
I mean, would you like to see Sarwan (for instance - Ganga or Samuels would do too) attempting to sweep MacGill bowling round the wicket at them? Sweeping against spin and angle in that quantity is an unwise idea IMO - but if someone's got away with it, fair does to them.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
luckyeddie said:
I've got a major problem with this (as you well know) because of one glaringly obvious omission - and it's one you can never resolve without a crystal ball.

It doesn't take into account the situation when the bad decision has gone against the batsman. A guy gets given out when he shouldn't have been. He scored 10. Perhaps he would have scored 50, 100, 200, 381 even.

It is my firm belief that over a long period of time, this sort of anomaly will agerage out - there's not really such a thing as an 'unlucky' or a 'lucky' player over a career - only over a short term. Dropped catches are part of the game - so, unfortunately, are bad decisions.

You mentioned Bradman.

Have you any idea what Bradman's career average should have been by your reckoning? Of course not - no evidence exists regarding any of his innings regarding chances offered and spurned, good or bad umpiring decisions and the like.

I think you're wasting your time.
It is my firm belief that most players have far more good luck over a career than bad. In most cases it's about the same, and in some cases it seems to me that a few players get more than the rest. Equally, you occasionally get an unlucky player - Flintoff, for instance, has had more bad luck than good IMO. But until last summer he had only scored Test-runs against a third-string NZ attack.
You are quite right that it's never possible to make a certainty out of an innings terminated when it shouldn't have been. However, it is possible to make it a bit fairer - with any run-out with no real fault attached to the sufferer (eg Vaughan yesterday) or a bad Umpiring decision against the batsman, you simply count it as an unterminated innings, like a not out.
It's not perfect, but nothing is ever going to be. IMO it's still a better reflection than the scorebook.
Regarding older playres, yes, you can't do it as accurately for them, but evidence does exist - you still got cricket reporters in those days - and once, bored, I tried to work-out Bradman's first-chance Test average. It came to 107.32. Of course you can't do it to as accurate a degree until you get into camera-behind-the-wicket days (know when that was? I've always thought it was about 1960), but reports do usually mention dropped catches, missed stumpings and run-outs.
Really, though, it's not fair to use the first-chance average for multi-era comparisons. You've just got to hope that 56 is an accurate average for Walter Hammond. In the modern era, though, I'd say it's fair to use it for all players, because all innings are covered in detail.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
PY said:
:O

That's such complete and utter tripe.

Things like this thread all come down to preference of batting style so can't really be argued. :)

PS Nationality also plays a fairly high part in who you prefer also ;)
Not for me. I am as unbiased as they come. Why let nationality spoil your view of a game as great as this?
Style is a MOO, of course, but that's just the point - to discuss our attitudes and values.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Eclipse said:
Richard mate some of the rubish you come up with I mean seriously you construct about the worst arguments I have ever seen and then expect us to take them seriously.

Not only that you a treat other people like they know bugger all when they try to express an opinion witch is totaly unfair given what you come up with.

And stop saying things as if there facts when all they are is your personal opinion.
As far as I'm concerned that's all total tripe.
I never try to argue my opinion as fact, and I never treat other people's opinion as inferior to my own. Incorrect, maybe, but not inferior.
If people consider my arguments some of the worst they have ever seen that's up to them. I can't change that.
 

gibbsnsmith

State Vice-Captain
Richard said:
Not for me. I am as unbiased as they come. Why let nationality spoil your view of a game as great as this?
Style is a MOO, of course, but that's just the point - to discuss our attitudes and values.
MOO?
 

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